Firstly let me say i hope no-one minds me putting this in the Our Community, General Discussion forum... it isn't political or religious.

Some of you might know that i posted my Grandfathers WWII photo's onto Jay's Photo Gallery some time ago:
https://photogallery2.jaylach.com/v/Doddie/WW2/

What none of you likely know is that i contacted the British Royal Navy back in Jan/Feb requesting his service records, normally there would have only been a 30 day turnaround but becasue of Covid i've only just received the records.

Deciphering the records is proving somewhat challenging, not least becasue i struggle to decipher handwriting of the 1940's but also because navy speak of the 40's is as if that was coded with abbreviatons as well.

That said, what has come back has been a real eye-opener.

e.g. I always knew he was Lieutenant in the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm but that was where his military service began and ended for me.
(armed with the evidence of his promotions, it turns out my recollection of what he told me when i was 10-12yo was wrong, i.e. i have a picture of him and his fellow Sub-Lieutenant's wearing Lieutenant epaulettes that i thought was his actual rank when he left the Navy... i now recall that that was a prank by the Sub-Lieutenant's where they self-promoted themselves to full Lieutenant's on the voyage home at the end of hostilities in the Pacific.)

He joined the Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve on 3rd May 1943, as a Naval Airman 2nd Class.

His Royal Navy record indicates he served with the RAF from 5th May 1941 until 6th May 1941, and from 8th August 1941 to 17th July 1942.

I had no idea he was ever in the RAF, i now have to contact the RAF for their records of his service.

I won't bore you by going into his full service record other than to say he spent one day at HMS Daedalus (a shore establishment) as a Naval Airman 2nd Class on 6th Jan 1943, and entered the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm on the 'Y' scheme on 3rd May May 1943.

I have no idea what the "Y Scheme" is other than it looks like it appears to be a fast track option for ratings or others to be fast tracked to become an an Officer?

He became an Acting Leading Airman with the Fleet Air Arm on 24th July 1943 and was promoted to Temporary Acting Sub Lieuteant on 5th June 1944.

He was released to shore in Class 'A' on 25th May 1946.

One thing that stands out in his Service History is:
"Duty: HMS Trumpeter" 3rd May 1945 to 4th May 1945.

The next entry is:
"HMS Trumpeter" 5th May 1945 to 26th Oct 1945.

HMS Trumpeter was part of Operation Judgement on 4th May 1945.

As far as i can tell that was the last air raid of the war in Europe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Judgement_(1945)

The War in Europe ended four days later on 8th May 1945.

HMS Trumpeter was originally the American USS Bastian and part of Lend-Lease:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Trumpeter_(D09)

There is much i don't know about my paternal grandfather's service during WWII, even less about my my maternal grandfather's service during WWI, and probably neigh on the impossible trying to find out about my maternal uncles life as Japanese POW during WWII, thankfully all survived the world wars but they never spoke about their experiences outside of any photographic evidence they had.

It's a shame i was so young and didn't have the confidence to push them for information when i had the chance, the chances of getting a straight answer was probably never going to happen, but i look back at the times we spent together and i wish i'd had the fortitude to at least have tried asking.

That said, they'd probably be horrified i can access their service records today, mostly it is just payroll and base/ship information i can access but there are the odd snippets of comments by superiors that read like a school report card in the margins.

I need to know what my paternal grandfather did in the RAF before he transferred to the Royal Navy under the 'Y' scheme.. i'm not expecting anything ground-breaking, it's just something i need to know because that man had a profound impact on my formative years and it feels like if i don't know that then a part of me is missing.

For better or worse...

No problem posting Doddie. That is what General Discussion is for.

Are you sure the correct term is 'Y Scheme' and not 'Y- Stations'?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-stations

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Interesting stuff, Doddie. My father also was in WWII, nearly met his Creator at the Battle of the Bulge. He also helped liberate one of the Concentration camps, Buchenwald.

A couple of actually humorous stories come out of his close call at the Bulge, sometime when I have the time, maybe I will relate them.
Bill

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The blazing evidence of immortality is our dissatisfaction with any other solution. -- Emerson

Very interesting! My father was infantry in the Dutch (Netherlands) army, was captured by the Germans and spent his time in the war as a prisoner, working for the Germans. I don't know very much about his time in WWII, but I know that when he was first taken prisoner he worked in a munitions factory of some sort, but after a short time he worked in a town doing film developing -- he was a photographer/graphic artist by trade. And, shortly after he left the munitions factory it was either bombed or blew up due to an accident!
My mother and her entire family were in the Netherlands East Indies (Indonesia), where she was born, and they were unable to leave when the war broke out in the Pacific. When the Japanese army occupied Indonesia, they became prisoners of war and my mother spent most of her teenage years in a prison camp. All in her family survived, thankfully, and they were finally able to go to Holland shortly after the war.
-steve

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stephen boots
Microsoft MVP 2004 - 2020
"Life's always an adventure with computers!"

My Dad was in the Army-Air Force during WWII. He was an accountant by trade, so most of his service time was spent in the administration buildings/tents abroad. That's not to say that he didn't spend many a night in a fox hole due to the frequent air raids. After he returned state-side, he caught polio which crippled him for life in one leg. And he never wanted to talk much about the war, so I never pushed him.

While Dad was in the service, my Mom was tasked with raising me and my younger sister. However, two of Mom's brothers were in the Marines during WWII. One was captured by the Japanese and subsequently shot & killed trying to escape. The other brother saw action on the enemy line(s) and came home a physical and mental wreck. Neither did he want to talk about his war experiences, and he had to use a walking cane the rest of his life.

Although they didn't want to talk much about WWII, my Dad and my uncles were my heroes.

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BB
http://barrypatch.net

My brother was at Dunkirk, he was 19, it was only because he was able to swim that he escaped, he came back with shell shock and I never heard him talk about his time during the war.

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Joan Archer
http://crossstitcher.webs.com

Yeah, when dad came back from the war, mom said he had nightmares for a long time. One night she woke up hearing him yelling. She found him underneath the sewing machine screaming, "Incoming! Incoming!"
Bill

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The blazing evidence of immortality is our dissatisfaction with any other solution. -- Emerson

There are still men and women going through it now but instead of just calling it shell shock they've given it a fancy name now, or PTS for short but I think they know more about it now than they did back then.

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Joan Archer
http://crossstitcher.webs.com

Jay, as sure as i can be at this point.

The pictures i've just taken of two ducuments below show as much as i know at this point:

a. I presume that this recently composed Victual (strugling to understand what victual actually means?) ledger says he was a Y Scheme entrant into the Royal Navy:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/gHbce2a2NcCadwUZQT1gKfi4kh70pMFqCNNluNmVR45

b. This Payment ledger of the time is the only source that mentions he served in the RAF, it's hand-written into an area to record what seemingly wasn't normally recorded? :
https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/sA6d8TCJQa4yM42paxhU5XyHY0nrZNGrH7JvxSIDWh9

Hopefully after i've contact the RAF for a copy of his service record within the RAF i/we will get an answer to the question of whether he was a Y Scheme or Y-Stations.

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Moving off-topic for a minute, thanks all for sharing your family memories.

I can't speak for what life must be like for people when they come back from war but here's my tuppenceworth anyway:

I have vivid memories of the physical damage the world wars caused so many... i might have only been 5 or 10 years old in the late 60's and early 70's but i remember well the number of people who used to walk in the streets with limbs missing and/or had horrible disfigurements.

I also remember all too well the so called 'tramps' that were looked down on by society because they couldn't cope with society and who chose to sleep rough... they didn't beg, they weren't dirty old men, they just wanted to be left alone to cope with what they'd been through as best they could because there was no help available to them... there was one i will always remember not because he did anything good or bad, i was about 5 years old and he always took the time out to stop and say hello to me when i tried to talk to him... i never understood why he dressed the way he did (he really needed a wash) but he had one of the kindest smiles i've ever seen.

Shell Shock (PTSD) was only beginning to be recognised in 60's and 70's UK, it wasn't until after the Falklands War (early 80's) that the UK really started to recognise the full impact of war on its veterans.

Fast forward to today, the sight of war vets with limbs missing and sleeping rough is rarely seen in the UK, i'm not naive enough to think that the world is rosie for veterans because medical science has moved on and at least the veteran plight is recognised and prosthetics etc are available... there is a long way to go and veterans will always have limbs missing and mental health issues but at least we now take their plight seriously... the Government might not always, but societly does.

Even if we can't see the missing limbs and mental health issues we would do well to remember that not everyone walking down our high streets is what they seem.

<End tuppenceworth>

Here is Webster's definition of victual:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victual
By the definition, and the first document that you linked, I would assume that he served on a supply ship or facility.


I haven't related any military experience in this thread for, probably, the same reason that it has been related that fathers and grand fathers didn't talk about their experiences as stated in several posts. I'm blind in one eye due to military service in the early 70's. It is just a simple fact that some things in one's life one would prefer to not remember.

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I was in college at the end of the Vietnam war -- there were a number of fellow students I was pals with who had returned from a tour of duty in Vietnam. None of them would talk about their experiences. I understand completely.
-steve

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stephen boots
Microsoft MVP 2004 - 2020
"Life's always an adventure with computers!"

Sigh... Steve PLEASE don't take this wrong but, while you may have empathy, you do not understand.

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I don't take that wrong at all. The written word doesn't always convey intent very well. I certainly don't understand what you and others experienced, but I can understand not wanting to recall or share the details of an experience. And I do have empathy for those who had the experiences.

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stephen boots
Microsoft MVP 2004 - 2020
"Life's always an adventure with computers!"

And "Thanks", Jay. If it weren't for the vets, we'd all be speaking German, Russian, whatever, or not speaking at all!
Bill

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The blazing evidence of immortality is our dissatisfaction with any other solution. -- Emerson

YW. I'm just glad that today's vets are treated better.

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Steve, that was an excellent response to Jay's comment. I understood exactly what you were saying, and I'm not sure why Jay misunderstood.

And thanks to you, Jay, and all the other vets for your service to our country.

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BB
http://barrypatch.net

Thanks for that Jay, but i can almost certainly say with 100% certaintity that the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm during WWII didn't have aircraft carriers as supply ships

That said and switfly pulling tongue out of cheek before you slap me! You have probably pointed me in the right direction:

The Royal Navy is fixated with tradition (as are most navies around the world)... to the point that not a lot of anything thay say makes any sense

I suspect this is one of those occassions.
i.e. What normally would've been renamed "Stores" by us landlubbers long ago has simply remained as "victual" (aka Food) by the British Royal Navy.

Put another way, i strongly suspect that in this context the 'victual ledger' refers not to food but to uniform and other equipement drawn.

Fwiw, there is overlap in the dates linked below, two of the three sources are from wikipedia so may not be enitirely accurate, despite that i 'feel' the premise is correct.


cf. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1826


cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victualling_Department_(Royal_Navy)


cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Stores_Department_(Royal_Navy)

Fwiw, i absolutely respect that, i've always figured if you wanted anyone to know how you were injured everyone would know already, for that reason i've never asked nor needed to know.

It's your business and none of mine, that said when it comes to family i do wish i'd pushed to know more about my relatives experiences when i had the chance... i might not have got anywhere but at least family will usually forgive a young inquisitive mind for asking, in the same way that a swift sharp never ask me that again will be forgiven.

A quick aside, i thought the use of the word "comptroller" in one of the quotes above was a typo, turns out it is an actual word!

I'm sort of shocked i can't find a definitive answer about the 'Y Scheme' on an official Govt website or somewhere like the Imperial War Museum, that said maybe this will help:

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/King_Alfred_1.htm#.XvEJxKZ7nmj
I won't quote any of the content in case i quote it out of context, it won't take much reading to know why i made that decision.

Hopefully that is put to bed now?

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Jay, thanks