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 Post Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:38 pm 
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Don't know about you but I believe in Karma. Just out of curiosity I went to my local Petco's website as when I'm done I want to get a few cheap fish to test the tank. I looked at about a dozen fish and none were available in store. Seems odd but mayhaps they got bit with what bit me. I need some thicker air lines so am going to have to go to the store tomorrow to see what is going on.

As to my tank I've decided to not add anti-fungal and antibacterial meds to sterilize the tank. I'm just going to dump in a couple of cups of household bleach. Won't hurt the plants but will kill anything else.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:37 am 
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That sure sounds like karma, but too bad for the fish if it is. Interesting that bleach won't affect the plants in the tank -- I didn't know that.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:39 pm 
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I'll probably pull the plants and use a weaker bleach solution than I will in the tank. Chlorine won't harm plants like it will fish. If I used straight bleach it would be different but a solution is OK.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:01 pm 
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I was in Petco today and their fish looked OK. Mayhaps they just don't accept on-line orders... :dunno:

Just double dosed the tank with antibiotics and will do the same for a few days. Probably not needed as I'm almost sure that the issue was a toxin but I want to cover all bases. When done with that I'll use the bleach to kill any possible fungi. After that I will drain all the water and fill several times to flush all the gunk I added to sterilize the tank and remove any residual toxins.

Also got some "aquatic super glue" to mount plants. Some plants you can just plant in the gravel but some have a rhizome which is a section just above the roots that, if buried, will likely rot. This is the plant part that sends out shoots. These types of plants need to be mounted on something above the gravel. Roots may very well end up in the gravel but don't need to as they get all nutrients they need straight from the water. Think about it... with the waste fish produce an aquarium is a crude hydroponics system.

Also got a chunk of lava rock that is impregnated with good bacteria spores that I will add after the tank is sterilized. This will help a bit in speeding up the nitrogen cycle that I explained in an earlier post.

LOL! YES, an aquarium is a science project. You are trying to duplicate nature in a small space.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:11 pm 
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jaylach wrote:
LOL! YES, an aquarium is a science project. You are trying to duplicate nature in a small space.


It sure sounds like an intense science project. :-D

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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:33 pm 
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sboots wrote:
jaylach wrote:
LOL! YES, an aquarium is a science project. You are trying to duplicate nature in a small space.


It sure sounds like an intense science project. :-D

It really is as you are attempting to pretty much trying to create a biosphere. A 30-50 gallon tank is the minimum to really succeed in this. With my 20 gallon cube I will have to do water changes to maintain everything as it should be.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:04 pm 
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I guess that I just proved that the plants were at fault. While waiting for my new gravel the tank started to cycle which produces what is called a bacteria bloom where there is a lot of free floating bacteria that eventually goes to the gravel and other surfaces. Decided to throw the plants back in and in less than a day the bacteria bloom was gone. The only logical conclusion is that the plants are still toxic so will be thrown out.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:38 pm 
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You were already certain, but it is good to have confirmation of that certainty.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:48 pm 
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sboots wrote:
You were already certain, but it is good to have confirmation of that certainty.

Ya I was sure that the plants were at fault and almost sure it was a toxin but had to prove things for my own satisfaction. After antibiotics and bleach any parasites or bad bacteria would have been killed. Only thing left is it has has to be a toxin... I think Occam's razor would agree. :mrgreen:

Shame though as I would have liked to save some of the plants as they are not cheap. Still it is not worth the time to test each plant one at a time.

<edit>

BTW, this is the gravel I ordered. Not totally black but close.

Attachment:
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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:58 pm 
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Well the process has begun... I'm scared to death! I've never done a tank that was totally populated with live plants and I have a drastic black thumb. I'm really worried that I'm just going to kill $120.00 worth of plants. Fortunately I found a REALLY good fish forum where people will guide me through getting the plants going.

Tank has been sterilized as best as I can figure to do and tonight I emptied everything and scrubbed. Put in the new gravel and partly filled. The black gravel isn't as black as expected but in the long run won't matter as the bottom will likely end up covered in moss.

Here is where I'm at tonight. First image is under full light and the second under just blue. I did do some minor modifications to increase (I hope) the efficiency of the built in filtration. Water level is low due to wanting 'room' to work with the new plants.

Attachment:
tank1.JPG
tank1.JPG [ 275.55 KiB | Viewed 2578 times ]


Attachment:
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tank2.JPG [ 218.81 KiB | Viewed 2578 times ]

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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:02 pm 
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I have to admit to being a bit pleasantly surprised by the size of the new plants. A LOT better than the crud I got from Petco!

Attachment:
IMG_2372.JPG
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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:32 pm 
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That looks pretty cool! Your new fish should like it when they move in.

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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:22 pm 
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sboots wrote:
That looks pretty cool! Your new fish should like it when they move in.

It looks cool under the blue light too but I won't use the blue often and never all the time. If exposed to blue light for more than a week at a time it can actually be harmful. Mayhaps once in a while as a sort of accent light when doing an all nighter watching movies.

One of the plants is just a bulb. It is a tiger lotus that can be either red or green. I hope it turns out to be red as it would give nice contrast. The only problem with these is that they are fast growing and can take over a tank if not kept trimmed. They will also get pretty white flowers under the right light conditions. And they DO seem to grow fast. Since I'm not familiar with this plant I looked it up and glad that I did. I planted it fully covered with gravel and that was wrong. Has to be planted with part of the bulb above the gravel or it will just rot. I replanted and after just ~7 hours in the tank it has already started to sprout.

It may look a bit strange that I've placed the air risers (bubble tubes) for the under gravel filtration in the middle and left instead of on each side but the outlet for the built in filtration is on the right side. The position of the air risers have no real impact on the under gravel filtration.

I need to run out tomorrow and get some plant food. For the plants actually planted in the gravel I need what are called root tabs which are slow release fertilizer that is placed in the gravel. For the plants that are not planted in the gravel I need to get some nutrients that stay suspended in the water. Once the tank is populated with fish this need will lessen as the plants will get nutrients from fish poop. While I've had live plants now and then this is my first time going totally live. There ARE advantages! 1) The tank will need less gravel cleaning as the plants will use the poop and left over fish food as nutrients. 2) I can add more fish than if using artificial plants as they will remove CO2 and add oxygen. 3) Some of the plants I got suck up ammonia making tank maintenance a lot easier. An ammonia level of over 1.0 Parts per million can be deadly to most fish. That is a bit iffy as water test kits measure total ammonia. Most of the ammonia detected is actually Ammonium, NH4, instead of the deadly true ammonia, NH3. Now NH4 CAN be harmful over time but nothing like NH3. Say that a water test under my water conditions of 81 degrees F with a PH of ~6.1 shows an ammonia level of 0.5. The actual NH3 level would only be 0.0004 Parts per million with the rest being NH4.

Red Tiger Lotus:
Attachment:
tiger lotus.png
tiger lotus.png [ 122.95 KiB | Viewed 2565 times ]


Tank under blue lighting:
Attachment:
IMG_2376.JPG
IMG_2376.JPG [ 392.47 KiB | Viewed 2565 times ]

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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:40 pm 
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Plant weights came in today, here is the result. Close to the original shot but there are differences. The image below is clickable to put a larger image in a new tab.

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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:57 pm 
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I see the changes in the foreground of the tree stump -- it looks great!

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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:31 pm 
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sboots wrote:
I see the changes in the foreground of the tree stump -- it looks great!

Since I really don't know live aquatic plants I started looking on-line for which I could actually plant in the gravel but said the heck with it and planted nothing actually in the gravel (substrate) and just used weights on everything with roots against the gravel. The ones that want to root in the gravel will, others won't. While there are a lot of different plants they boil down to bulbs, stem plants and those with rhizomes. Stem plants can be planted in the gravel. Bulbs... depends on the plant. If the bulb for the Tiger Lotus cannot be buried or it will just rot. The ones with a rhizome MUST have the rhizome above the gravel or it will rot and kill the plant. The rhizome is the part that sends out runners on spreading plants.

LOL! Like you said before it is a science project. :mrgreen: Live plants have pros and cons. The major con is that a lot of them need trimming or they will take over a tank. The pros far outweigh the cons. Some of the pros are the fact that many suck in ammonia, they oxygenate the water while removing CO2, they use fish waste and left over fish food for nutrients making tank maintenance easier and I think they just look better than plastic or silk. Oh, they are also like another form of filtration. Note how clear the water is in comparison with earlier images with plastic plants. They also allow for more fish as they put out oxygen and suck up waste.

I think that I'll probably get a couple of floating plants to give areas of shade and will be done as long as I don't kill the plants. ;) Some people have a green thumb but my thumbs tend to be on the black side. Shoot, I actually managed to kill a luck bamboo! Took me awhile but I killed it. :(

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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:04 am 
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:rofl2: Hopefully you won't kill these plants, the tank looks great and I love the colours at the bottom.

Good luck with your science project, it sounds like you are really enjoying yourself. :lol:

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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:08 pm 
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Actually I MAY have gotten an odd plant. The plant is called an Anubias and mounts on stuff instead of being planted in the gravel. The odd thing is that I have searched images and can't find one to match. Leaves and stuff are proper but the stems are off as they are red instead of green. This MAY be caused by my adding iron supplements for my Tiger Lotus. Still, I can't find a matching image on-line. I posted a question about this on the fish forums I do and await answers.

Personally I hope all is well as I like the red stems. ;) All in all the plant looks totally healthy but just not what I see on-line.

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:40 am 
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OMG!!! Including shipping I just spent $76.98 for a fish! Actually the fish was just $26.99 but shipping is $49.99. I got a Rope Fish coming!!! :) :)

I just totally love these things! Wasn't cheap but I'm happy to pay for what I want.


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:46 pm 
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Will have 4 of these tomorrow. These will be pretty along with an algae control.
Attachment:
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OIP.jpg [ 23.79 KiB | Viewed 2420 times ]


Right now I have bladder snails that hitched a ride on one of my plants that are good for algae but the rope fish will probably eat.
Attachment:
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6affaacaeba8dffabb44214444ab6546.jpg [ 35.32 KiB | Viewed 2420 times ]


One may think it a bit on the dumb side spending for some expensive fish like the rope fish without proving that the tank is no longer toxic but the bladder snails thriving is pretty solid proof.

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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:38 am 
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Welp my fish arrived today, rope fish by next day air and the 4 Panda Garra a local pickup. Leaves me two more fish to find. All fish look good.

the Pandas are a total hoot! I've never had this fish before. They are described as very playful and active but that is an understatement. If you remember the old cartoon 'Ricochet Rabbit' that is these fish. They showed no stress as to the relocation and immediately started eating algae and playing in the water currents and air bubbles. They are just non stop action and a blast to watch.

The rope fish is a bit larger than I expected but still does not seem to be large enough to be a danger to the Pandas. Ropes are predators. The rope also seems to have already adapted to the tank. At first it stayed totally hidden in the tree trunk and plants but 7-8 hours later it was out and about. A good sign with the rope is that it seems that it has eaten a couple of meal worms and seems to be ignoring the Pandas. I was impressed by the shipping on the rope. The water bag was inside of a Styrofoam cooler type container which I'm sure contributed to the ease of acclimation to my tank as it did not suffer any extreme temperature fluctuations. There does seem to be a oddity with this rope fish. Usually they prefer calmer water currents but when this one came out of hiding it was playing in the strong current put out by the output of the built in sponge filter pulling 94 gallons per hour. That may change when it is more used to the tank and finds its preferred areas. I mean it spent time exploring the tree trunk and thicker plants in the back of the tank but also spent time in a stronger current.

Knock on wood but the tank seems to be going as strong as could be. Another sword plant has sprouted roots from a stem node and is ready to snip off and plant as another background plant. If the tank were to still be toxic the fish would be showing extreme stress by now.

I AM still impressed with the plants I got. It's been like three weeks and I already have two new plants. I DO need to cut back a couple of sword plants on the left back side. That is where the upper water intake for the built in sponge filter is located. If a sword plant leaf got sucked in and blocked the intake the pump might empty the filter chambers which could cause the tank to overflow. I'm going to have to look at getting a pair of forceps with long handles to make it easier to trim plants. Think of my plants as a hedge row that needs trimming now and then. Think of forceps as a short blade long handle pair of scissors.

With a lot of thanks to Petco this has been the tank from hell but it is now looking pretty good. :)

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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:55 am 
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Excellent! I'm sure that the fish will be happy and your "gardening" skills will come into play to keep the plants tamed. :-)

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 Post Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:25 pm 
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Pleased to hear that the tank is going well, you sound really excited about it all so enjoy your tank and hope you have many years of fish watching. :D

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 Post Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:30 pm 
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Actually I messed up a bit with a plant I ordered. It is called Dwarf Hair Grass and looked like it would make good short foreground cover. Turns out that it is not a true aquatic plant and I'd have to use CO2 injection in the tank to have a chance of keeping it alive. Not normal for me to order without researching and it figures when I did I'd get bit in the behind.

Still no issue. The stuff will just go in my bird's cage along with his Coral Cactus.

<edit>

Just emailed my 'plant provider' to see if I can replace the order with different plants. We shall see what we shall see. ;)

I MUST get a picture of what just happened. Rope Fish are a pain but I love the things. I have a Tiger Lotus bulb that was just sitting on top of the gravel and sprouting. The Rope Fish decided that the bulb was a soccer ball and was moving it all over the area so I decided to partially bury the bulb to, hopefully, keep it in place so the roots don't keep being pulled up. While working with the bulb I felt something on my hand. One of the Panda Garra had attached itself to my hand and didn't want to let go. My camera was within reach but the memory card was not inserted. I totally have to duplicate this and get a photo!

Below is what I ordered, first, and the two I hope to be able to use as replacements.

Hair Grass.
Attachment:
hair grass.jpg
hair grass.jpg [ 51.8 KiB | Viewed 2360 times ]


dwarf Sagittaria
Attachment:
dwarf Sagittaria.jpg
dwarf Sagittaria.jpg [ 36.49 KiB | Viewed 2357 times ]


Pygmy chain swords -- They don't always have the colors shown but would be nice.
Attachment:
Pygmy chain swords.jpg
Pygmy chain swords.jpg [ 44.88 KiB | Viewed 2357 times ]

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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:10 pm 
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That was quick! Plant supplier already got back to me and the order is changed with refund of the difference on the way.

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