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 Post subject: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:02 pm 
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My wife and i had a rather heated debate the other day about what would happen to Scotland's infection rates when schools returned to full-time schooling this week.

Fyi 1, Our schools are scheduled to re-open full-time on 11th August, some local authority areas have said that more time will be needed before that happens but most will likely all be back in full-time education by the end of August.

Fyi 2, Schooling in the UK is considered as the 5-18 year old age group... anyone above age 18yo is generally considered to be in University or College and not in school, below 5yo is considered what the US would call kindergarten.

We differed on one fundamantal point that i thought i'd share here:

She'd seen a news report on the BBC that claimed children of school age do not transmit Covid-19 like adults do, whilst that may be true (i can't find the BBC article) she was admant that children are nor spreaders of the disease.

As the arguement progressed i asked her where in the world that came from and she said Australia and China.

I dismiss anything coming out of China as the truth but Australia intriugued me, tonight i found the results of the Australian study on The Lancet website and wanted to share it with you, make of it what you will.

The former link is the shortest and easiest read, the latter the more techinical... in either case i have no idea how the BBC managed to spin the story so that my wife would believe it.

Finding a path to reopen schools during the COVID-19 pandemic:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30249-2/fulltext

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in Australian educational settings: a prospective cohort study:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30251-0/fulltext

As i said, read and make up your own mind.

Fwiw, the outcome of the debate was that she's never wrong and i'm always right... apparently i'm a self-centered idiot and she's a pompous fool... we kissed and made up and agreed to disagree... that was until i sent her the links above, i might be in trouble for that! LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:20 pm 
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Both of the above links were broken due to this forum software not liking '(text)' in a link. I fixed by embedding the links in a [url] BBCode. For some eason beyond me the software will add a space in a case of '(text)' so it ends up as '(text )'.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:11 am 
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Schools here in Wales opened for the last 3 weeks of the school year but my daughter wouldn't send any of her children back.

They are all bad asthmatics so they were vunerable and she wasn't risking their lives just for 3 weeks.

At the moment they are all going back in September but it remains to be seen if things change again.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:44 pm 
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jaylach wrote:
Both of the above links were broken due to this forum software not liking '(text)' in a link. I fixed by embedding the links in a [url] BBCode. For some eason beyond me the software will add a space in a case of '(text)' so it ends up as '(text )'.

Thaks Jay, first it was brackets, now its (text)?

Are you sure it's not the same bracket issue i had before?

In any case, no matter the cause, i'll try to train myself to use the url bbcode in future :)

Edited to add: Could this be a Firefox related issue? I use Firefox now and only ask because since my bracket issue in an earlier thread i usually submit the post and check the links by opening them in a new Firefox window to make sure they work... i'm pretty sure i did that with the links above?


Last edited by Doddie on Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:58 pm 
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JoanA wrote:
Schools here in Wales opened for the last 3 weeks of the school year but my daughter wouldn't send any of her children back.

They are all bad asthmatics so they were vunerable and she wasn't risking their lives just for 3 weeks.

At the moment they are all going back in September but it remains to be seen if things change again.

Joan, the good news (i guess) is your daughter can look at Scotland to see what happens here before the schools in Wales re-open, a lot of our schools went back yesterday and the Scottish Government wants all Scottish school children back in school by the end of next week.

If infection rates in schools or the wider community in Scotland suddenly start shooting up (overall virus infection rates in Scotland are very low at the moment) then it might help her make a more informed decision.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:56 am 
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The only trouble though Doddie is that this is a tourist area, my daughter lives in Tenby, South Wales, which has seen a large influx of people wanting a holiday and the beach regardless since the restrictions have started to be lifted, especially during this hot weather.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:26 pm 
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Joan, the impact of this virus is certainly making normal life very different and difficult for all of us.

As i'm sure you're aware Edinburgh is normally overun and packed with tourists at this time of year due to the arts festivals; Edinburgh International Festival, Film Festival, Book Festival, Fringe, Tattoo etc, but because they've ALL been cancelled this year Edinburgh City Centre is like a ghost town compared to this time last year... there are no tourists, either from abroad or from the UK.

It's actually quite refreshing on one hand to be able to move around Edinburgh without having to fight through hoardes of traffic driven by tourists on the roads who don't know where they're going, or fight through pavements (sidewalks) of tourists not paying attention to where they're going... on the other hand, it's worrying what the long term effects on the local economy will be, in particular, how the City Council is going to fill the hole in lost revenue from taxation etc.
[I used 'etc' because as an example, unlike most of the rest of the UK Edinburgh did not deregulate the City bus service in the 1980's, it chose to keep the service entirely municipal with a 91% shareholding, the other 9% is owned by other nearby local authorites, Edinburgh City Council has historically recieved a dividend of circa £6m/per year... but not this year because the service is running at a lost due to social distancing drastically reducing passenger numbers.]
Edinburgh already had a black hole of circa £50m to fill before the pandemic happened with city wide cutbacks to local services in the pipeline.

That black hole is going to be substantially bigger now, and so are the cutbacks... sadly i suspect it'll be the people that most need services from the City that will feel it worst, but there's no doubt in my mind everyone in Edinburgh is going to feel some pain from lost local services, or a sharp increase in taxes (i.e. Council Tax)... how bad it'll be i don't suppose we'll know until the end of the fiscal year but i expect it'll likely be draconian.

Anyway enough of that rant and back on topic a bit...

Schools returning does have a silver lining i guess, families won't be desperate to take their kids somewhere when the weather is nice so in areas like Tenby hopefully occurances of over-crowding will be restricted to weekends?

In Edinburgh we've had our trouble spots when the weather has been nice (unless you know Edinburgh the following areas probably won't make any sense but i suspect you can enter your own area names if you live in a City and the results will be the same?), two off the top of my head:
The Meadows.
Portobello Beach.

Every time we've had hot weather in Edinburgh it seems, from media reports and pictures, that they've been hotspots for school age teens 15+ and students 18-30 to head for a party...
I can't say i blame them, they must be bored out of their minds with nothing to do after months of being told to stay at home, but as restrictions are lifted... should that be an excusable excuse?
I don't think so, but i do understand their behaviour... maybe it is time for schools and universities to go back full-time and to hell with the consequences?

Nope, i've thought about it, what they need to do is suck it up and understand that these are exceptional times and they need to grow up and take responsibility for the harm they might be causing to other people when they flout the restrictions.

End rant.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:19 pm 
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Doddie wrote:
...what they need to do is suck it up and understand that these are exceptional times and they need to grow up and take responsibility for the harm they might be causing to other people when they flout the restrictions.


This sums it up quite nicely. It's not just the young people, though they do make a large part of the problem.
I'm astounded at the selfishness of people who *need* to go out to eat, vacation at the beach, hold parties and other gatherings, etc. Granted, the guidelines were sketchy at first and have changed over time - as more has been learned about the virus -- but if people would simply follow the guidelines about social distancing, hand washing, and face coverings, we'd be in much better shape/

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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:19 pm 
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Doddie I knew Edinburgh festival had been cancelled, Mike my friend in London has a daughter who's job, among others, involve being at the festival working every year and of course this year it's not possible and as other theatres are closed she's out of work whereas her sister has been able to work from home on the computer. At least they are now able to visit him which has been a blessing.

I know what you mean about taxes rising to try and recoup lost revenue, as our county is very tourist driven they already have a tax on second homes, which are empty for several months a year out of season.

We do still have a bus service going through the village daily, apart from Sundays when there are no buses running and the service finishes around 6.30pm so if you don't have transport you can't get in or out of the place, it's a coastal village that just has a pub and a manor house that runs as a pub/restaurant/5 bedroom bed and breakfast establishment. We don't even have a convenience store any longer so they can't tax our amenities as we don't have any.

Pembrokeshire did a pretty good job of trying to keep the hordes out when we were still in lockdown and England had started to relax their rules but some had manged to get through and caused trouble.

I agree with Doddie and Stephen if people just followed the rules, after all they are there for all our benefit, life would be a lot more tolerable and we'd get through this pandemic quicker.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:06 pm 
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When a news article pretty much begins with:

Quote:
"There is currently no evidence of transmission in the schools."


But then goes on to say:

Quote:
Parents of a senior pupil at one of the affected schools in North Lanarkshire told the BBC they were "disappointed" their son had to self-isolate after "the selfish actions of others".

They did not want to be identified, but said they were informed their son was sitting close enough to one of the positive cases for more than 15 minutes and had to self-isolate.

His mother said: "We've done everything we can to protect our children during lockdown. So we are really disappointed that the actions of others has resulted in this.

"We got a phone call on Sunday night and our world turned upside down. Test and trace phoned to advise that our teenage son had been identified as a contact of a positive pupil at Caldervale High.

"Our son had already seen it via social media, he knew who the boy was and had sat next to him in a class. And because he had sat next to him for over 15 minutes he has to get contacted by Test and Protect."

She added: "He has to isolate until 27 August. He's now missing school because of selfish actions of people having house parties.

"We believe this has all stemmed from a house party at Coatbridge involving a large number of kids. People who are encouraging young people to get involved in parties do not understand the implications on others."

The child's father said he had to take his son to be tested at Ravenscraig on Monday morning.

He added: "there were three cars in front and we had to do the test ourselves in the car. By the time we had finished there were another 10-15 cars with kids in them doing tests."

Source:
Coronavirus: Party links to Glasgow and Lanarkshire clusters
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-53804140

The signs are not good, this is barely even the beginning of week two of schools going back to full-time education in Scotland.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:30 pm 
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Yeah, the word "selfish" has been used a couple times above and I believe that pretty much sums it up. Yes, we may have to temporarily give up some of our rights for a while but it is to save lives. And those selfish people are not thinking about those poor, over worked hospital and medical workers, and how filled up some hospitals are getting.

Whatever happened to the guts, courage, and willingness to sacrifice that America once had?
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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:51 pm 
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Acadia wrote:
Yeah, the word "selfish" has been used a couple times above and I believe that pretty much sums it up. Yes, we may have to temporarily give up some of our rights for a while but it is to save lives. And those selfish people are not thinking about those poor, over worked hospital and medical workers, and how filled up some hospitals are getting.

Whatever happened to the guts, courage, and willingness to sacrifice that America once had?
Bill

This is why I'm wearing scratched up glasses and doing nothing. When I had my yearly checkup this past spring I was supposed to set up an appointment for new glasses and, also, with an Ophthalmologist as the internal pressure of my messed up eye hit 50 mm of mercury, normal is 20 mm. Before I set up any appointments COVID-19 hit. I have still not set up any appointments. I figure that the old glasses still work and the messed up eye seldom actually causes me discomfort. I figure the staff at the V.A. have enough to deal with and I can wait.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:35 pm 
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Yes my hubby was due to have his back of the eye photo taken but that got postponed, he has to be careful as he's diabetic plus has a faulty pacemaker. He had his yearly check on the pacemaker at the beginning of the year and they found the top wire had become detached. They were supposed to be making him an appointement with the consultant after 3 months but of course that got cancelled so he's still waiting.

I'm supposed to have my bloods taken every couple of months to keep an eye on my Hyperthyroidism but that's not been done or another procedure which should be checked and changed every 6 months, it's been in place over a year without any checks. My yearly eye check up is due in October and it's done as a home visit so don't know if that will go ahead or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:43 pm 
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Bars and restaraunts re-opened in Scotland on 15th July, schools on 11th Aug, universities circa two weeks ago.

For approx three weeks prior to bars and restaurants re-opening our daily infection rate was in the single digits for the entire population who were tested (the graph that follows is scaled to per 100k).

Make up your own mind on what shouldn't have happened but it's pretty clear to me!
i.e. Keep pubs etc shut and cancel the academic year until at least the spring.

Attachment:
ScotRates.JPG
ScotRates.JPG [ 52.23 KiB | Viewed 4614 times ]

Source & more: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54285720

cf. Coronavirus in Scotland: Where are the latest cases?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53511877


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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:46 pm 
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Since schools opened in the States there have been teacher deaths in several states. It is believed that the teachers caught from students.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:02 pm 
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It's a nonesense for anyone to claim that schools are safe and that children don't pass on the virus, arguably it's a dereliction of duty.

In the source & more link above the article is actually talking about entire student accomodation blocks being put into lockdown in Scotland, telling students in universities that if they go home to self-isolate they'll be breaking the law along with the threat of expulsion from the campus... imo they should never have been allowed into this position in the first place.

With the graph spiking the way it is after only a few weeks, something needs to be done to stop this madness before we have another care home crisis... except this time it's with the young going stir crazy!


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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:39 pm 
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Doddie wrote:
It's a nonesense for anyone to claim that schools are safe and that children don't pass on the virus, arguably it's a dereliction of duty.


I'm in complete agreement. Numbers and infection rates are increasing here, too, ever since schools started back up and restaurants are allowed limited indoor dining. In my town, in person schooling is very limited still -- special education and a few other types, with the general population 100% remote. However, the football team at the High School practices every afternoon, boy's and girl's soccer practice every other day, Track team practices... And games and meets will apparently be happening soon. The marching band practices weekly outside and I have to say they are generally doing okay -- everyone has face coverings when not playing, and only wind instrument players lower their face coverings when playing, but they spaced about 10 feet apart. I still don't think that they should be gathering and I certainly don't think sports games should be played -- they are contact sports!

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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:56 pm 
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From the Wall Street Journal, published today:

Covid-19 Is Creeping Into Europe’s Schools
Schools are reporting thousands of cases in some of the continent’s biggest coronavirus hot spots
https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-is-creeping-into-europes-schools-11602581400

Quote:
There’s a new front in Europe’s fight to contain the coronavirus pandemic: the classroom.

Parents across the continent sent their children back to school a month ago after officials insisted there was scant evidence the virus would spread among children in school. Now schools are reporting thousands of cases in some of Europe’s biggest coronavirus hot spots.

The rising numbers are an early-warning sign for the U.S., where schools that opened for in-person classes across the country are trying to prevent clusters at a time cases are trending higher nationally...


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:22 pm 
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Cases climbing rather dramatically here, too. I'm sure that schools are part of the reason. :-(

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 Post subject: Re: Re-opening schools?
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:59 pm 
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sboots wrote:
Cases climbing rather dramatically here, too. I'm sure that schools are part of the reason. :-(

It's a no-brainer that schools will, and are, aiding the spread this disease.

Whilst it's true that school age children (of all ages) don't get severe infections and are rarely hospitalised, it is widely accepted they can contract the disease, in many cases with asymptomatic symptoms.

The issue i have with this "debate" is not about whether children should be denied education, it's about what the consequences will be if we allow them to mix freely in known breeding grounds for viruses (e.g. Schools) and then go home to spread the disease among other family members.

In that scenario it doesn't matter how locked down any society is, if children are allowed to freely spread the disease amongst themselves the virus will spread out into all age groups through contact with other family members.

Flu or the common cold, it is well known the two worst age groups for spreading those are the elderly and children.... thanks to the flu vaccine the elderly are less likely to spread those viruses now, but the flu vaccine is less efficient with children, and very few are given it.

Schools are well known for spreading flu and the common cold, i simply cannot get my head around the logic that says schools will not be a factor in spreading Covid-19 as well, there is NO evidence that says they are safe, only supposition based on the fact it's never been studied because there is no data.

On a personal level, as my Long Covid symptoms continue with no recovery in sight, along with no official recognition that Long Covid even exists, i am becoming increasingly concerned about what might happen to me if i catch Flu or even the common cold at a time when hospital admissions are again rising.


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:25 pm 
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I am in complete agreement, Doddie. In my area, most students are still remote learning, but some in school learning is taking place. Sports are in full swing, which makes me rather anxious.
I sure do hope that you manage to avoid the flu and common cold while still slowly recovering from COVID!

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:33 pm 
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sboots wrote:
... I sure do hope that you manage to avoid the flu and common cold while still slowly recovering from COVID!

Double ditto on that!
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And a third ditto from me, hope you overcome this terrible virus sooner rather than later so you can get your full health again. :)

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Are you able to get a flu shot?

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:05 pm 
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jaylach wrote:
Are you able to get a flu shot?

The Scottish Government have expanded the criteria for qualifying for a flu jab on the NHS this year to include those over 55, so yes i can get a flu jab but somewhat ironically not until December, about half way through the flu season.
Quote:
Those aged 55 to 64 (by 31 March 2021) who would not usually be eligible will also be offered the flu vaccine from December.
Source: https://www.nhsinform.scot/healthy-living/immunisation/vaccines/flu-vaccine

I spoke to my GP about the flu jab a few weeks ago, specifically asking whether she thought it would be a good idea to have the flu jab given that no-one knows what's causing Long Covid...
"Potentially it's my immune system that's not coping with Covid so would it be safe to introduce a vaccine into my system at this time?".

I got the distinct impression that that question caught her completely off guard because she went silent as if in deep thought, after a long pause i re-phrased the question:
"If you were me and you had the same symptoms i have, would you have the flu vaccine?"

She immediatelly replied "yes" and went on to say that the benifits for me will in all probability outweigh any negatives.

I wasn't at all reassured by the discussion but sometimes you just have to trust people who've spent their whole lives working to help people like me.
The way i see it, they've helped me get over worse in the last 56 years, hopefully i'll still be around to bother them in year 57! LOL

Annoyingly, when i found out that the NHS in Scotland was going to be so slow in rolling out their vaccine programme for people my age it seems it's too late to get one privately...
In a normal year you can go to a local pharmacist and have a flu jab for about £7 or £8 but because of demand due to Covid they're all sold out.


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