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System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
https://computerhaven.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2185		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  bbarry [ Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Several months ago I was getting what I call system crashes, where my keyboard/mouse/screen froze and I had to do a restart using the power button. After changing my power settings to never turn off the hard drive, I no longer got these crashes. Until today....

Now I've gotten three crashes in less than 6 hours. All these happened after I did the two latest Quality Updates to my Win 10 Version 1809 system. These were downloaded yesterday, but I didn't do the restart until this morning. That's when the crashes began.

The two Quality Updates were:
- 2019-07 Cumulative Update for .NET Framework 3.5, 4.7.2, 4.8 for Win 10 Ver 1809 for x64-based system (KB4507419)
- 2019-07 Cumulative Update for Win 10 Ver 1809 for x64-based system (KB4507469)

My computer stays on 24/7, and all three crashes happened when I was away from the computer....no crashes when I am using the computer. I can't update to the 1903 version because I have four external drives hanging off my system, and Microsoft says I am not ready.

I have installed no new software. As I have done for many months, I continue to use eM Client as my email client and Vivaldi as my browser.

I sure could use some help on this issue, as I am quickly wearing out the power button on my computer. Just when I was falling back in love with Win 10, Microsoft makes me want a divorce!
Author:  jaylach [ Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Re-check your power settings to make sure that one of the updates did not change back your setting to not turn off hard drives.
Author:  bbarry [ Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Did that....still set to Never turn off hard drive.
Author:  jaylach [ Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
I can't remember... do you have your system set to sleep? If so change to never sleep.

Just for grins let's do a test. Yes, you will miss a scheduled image backup or two but remove all external drives if possible. Actually remove any USB devices that you can also.

You may also want to consider doing a forced update to Windows 10 version 1903. Yes, you would need to disconnect the external drives. Of course I can't guarantee that removing externals will allow version 1903 to install.

If nothing else, at least, remove all USB externals and re-boot. Shut down and re-connect the externals and boot.

Hmmm, on the external drives... are they self powered or powered by the USB port? If any of the drives are powered off of the USB port it may be stressing the port. USB connections can cause some strange things on a system. Knew someone that had a system that would not boot at all if a flash drive was plugged in. Remove the flash drive and boot and all was fine and still fine if the flash drive were plugged in after the boot. Also remember that on many systems the front USB ports offer less power than the back. In my case all USB devices are connected to back ports except for my mouse/keyboard dongle, game pad and headset. To give an example I thought my keyboard was going bad as I'd be typing and nothing happened. I have four front USB ports but one must remember that each set of two ports associate to one USB hub. It is the USB hub that supplies the 5 volt power for attached devices. The way that I have it set up is that I have the mouse/keyboard dongle in one port and an external 4-port hub attached that is not self powered. The external hub holds my game pad and head set. It dawned on me that both the external hub powering the game pad/head set and the mouse/keyboard dongle were all connected to the left two front USB ports. Between the three devices there was just too much poswer draw on the USB hub within the system. I moved the mouse/keyboard dongle to one of the right hand ports and all is well.

If this is not the system that you have problems reaching the back shut down and remove the power plug. Hit the power plug a few times and re-connect the power. LOL! My main cure-all but it often does work. :mrgreen:
Author:  bbarry [ Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Jay, thanks much for your detailed response. However, removing all my USB devices would be a monumental chore, and nothing to grin about, lol. In addition to the four external drives and two powered USB ports, I have many USB devices....mouse, keyboard, iPhone, Bluetooth, weather station, UPS software, LaserJet Printer, two flash drives used for immediate data file backups, and one USB card reader used to view my animal/critter videos.

And all this was working great until Microsoft invoked an update yesterday. In fact, if I read about the KB4507469 update, it's kinda scary. Sorta like listening to the list of side effects when they advertise a medicine on TV.

All that being said, I did do one thing you hinted at in your response, that being that a flash drive prevented a user from being able to do a restart. If you recall, several months ago I started getting daily BSODs and finally isolated it to a particular USB SD card reader that I had actually been using for years. So back then I swapped out card readers and my problems went away.

Well, when I got the three crashes yesterday, it so happened that I had my new USB SD card reader inserted in a port on top of my case (where I had been viewing some animal videos). I decided to remove the card reader, and sure enough last night I had no crashes.

So knock on wood..... :D :D
Author:  jaylach [ Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Knocking on wood using the side of my head as a proxy. :mrgreen:

If things stay OK I have to wonder if the actual issue is caused by a card reader or, possibly, the card put in the reader. If you use multiple cards in the reader it may be worth testing each card to see if one specific card brings up the issue. Don't bother starting with the last card used, use another. We already know that the card reader and current card MAY be the cause. Use another card in the reader and see if the issue comes back. If not put back in the current card and test. If the issue then returns replace the current card.

Sorry that this is the best I can offer right now but USB issues are REALLY hard to deal with on a forum. It tends to boil down to trial and error...
Author:  bbarry [ Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Jay, I understand USB issues are difficult to deal with, but as always I appreciate your input. I am experimenting with different cards and card readers. Odd as it sounds, as long as I don't leave a reader and card in my USB port when I walk away from my computer for awhile, I no longer have the crashes. At least thus far.

But even though I am away from my computer for awhile, there are usually things going on, e.g., backups, video streaming from security cameras, auto maintenance activities, etc. So having an SD card reader mounted is definitely interfering with something, even when I'm not there.


I will keep you posted on my results.
Author:  bbarry [ Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Well, I experienced another crash this morning.

I got an interruption while I still had an SD card reader w/card inserted in the top USB port of my computer tower. I was away from my computer for about two hours, and when I returned.......sure enough my system had crashed. My keyboard, mouse, & screen were frozen and I had to do a restart using the power button. Just like before.

So I am scratching my head. What in the world is going on? How can a dormant SD card reader cause my system to crash? I never get a crash when I am viewing the video files contained on the SD card, so what is different when I walk away and stop viewing for a couple of hours? There has to be some USB port setting that I am missing. Is there a power struggle going on between system components? :dunno:

Any ideas?
Author:  jaylach [ Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Try going to the power settings in your Control Panel then Change Power Settings then Change Advanced Settings. Under USB make sure that USB selective suspend is disabled.
Author:  bbarry [ Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Jay, it was disabled.
Author:  jaylach [ Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
I sort of figured that it was disabled but could not remember for sure. I think we changed it the last time you had this issue.

You asked if there could be a power struggle and, yes, that is possible. Is there another device plugged into a USB port next to the card reader? If so it is possible that they could be stressing the USB hub for power. Each USB hub powers two USB ports. Say you have four ports such as = = = =. The left two would be powered by one hub and the right two by another hub. Depending on the devices having two plugged into the same hub can stress the hub for power. A hub only puts out 5 volts at a very low amperage.

It could also be a factor that the USB port MAY be being shut off when the system is idle. Go to your Control Panel then Device Manager. Under Universal Serial Bus Controllers right click on each and select Properties. Under Power Management uncheck the box that allows allows the computer to turn off the device to save power. You will probably only find the Power Management tabs in the properties for actual hubs but check them all. Click OK after each change. May or may not actually be needed but re-start the system after all changes are made. This could also account for the fact that the system only crashes when idle as the devices would only be shut off when the system is idle.
Author:  bbarry [ Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Holy Moly......you aced it, Jay! I found many Power Management Tabs, and all of these were checked to allow the computer to turn off the device except for my four Mass Storage Devices. Shown below is a snip of my USB Controllers. All of the Generic USB Hubs were checked, as were the Intel USB 3.0 eXtensible Host Controller and the USB Root Hub (USB 3.0). So I unchecked and did a restart. I will keep you posted.
Attachment:
USB Controller.JPG
USB Controller.JPG [ 57.23 KiB | Viewed 5980 times ]
Author:  jaylach [ Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
I hope that it helps. I thought of this by your asking if it could be a power struggle. This same thing solved an old issue with wireless connections years ago. Especially on laptops the wireless would drop out if the system went idle and a re-start was needed to bring it back. Disable the option to turn off the wireless controller and usually the problem was solved.

I've never been able to prove but I think this boils down to a driver issue as to the driver not allowing the device to turn back on after Windows turns it off.

I hope that the issue is resolved. :)
Author:  bbarry [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Jay, I have purposely left an SD card reader w/card in my USB port several times while I was away from my computer, including overnight. And I have yet to have another crash, so I think you were spot on when you recommended that I change my USB controller settings to not let the computer turn them off. Thanks again.... :bow7:
Author:  jaylach [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
I hope that it keeps up. :)
Author:  bbarry [ Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
jaylach wrote:
I sort of figured that it was disabled but could not remember for sure. I think we changed it the last time you had this issue.

You asked if there could be a power struggle and, yes, that is possible. Is there another device plugged into a USB port next to the card reader? If so it is possible that they could be stressing the USB hub for power. Each USB hub powers two USB ports. Say you have four ports such as = = = =. The left two would be powered by one hub and the right two by another hub. Depending on the devices having two plugged into the same hub can stress the hub for power. A hub only puts out 5 volts at a very low amperage.

It could also be a factor that the USB port MAY be being shut off when the system is idle. Go to your Control Panel then Device Manager. Under Universal Serial Bus Controllers right click on each and select Properties. Under Power Management uncheck the box that allows allows the computer to turn off the device to save power. You will probably only find the Power Management tabs in the properties for actual hubs but check them all. Click OK after each change. May or may not actually be needed but re-start the system after all changes are made. This could also account for the fact that the system only crashes when idle as the devices would only be shut off when the system is idle.

Jay, this is an old topic post. However, over the last two days I once again experienced system hangs when I walked away from my computer for awhile....when I returned, my keyboard and mouse would be useless. So I began my search into what was suddenly causing this problem yet again. So after turning off my security cameras, stopping my wallpaper slide show, temporarily turning off WAM, and removing my flash drive from the USB port, the problem was still there. Then I remembered that the problem began just after I did a Windows Quality Update on 27 Feb. And that made me recall your recommendation above, so I went and checked my Universal Serial Bus Controllers.

Would you believe that under Power Management, the box that allows the computer to turn off the device to save power was once again checked for most devices? Even though I unchecked all these boxes last year? So I'm thinking that there is something in the Quality Updates that is causing these boxes to be checked once more.

All boxes are now unchecked (once again), so hopefully that will solve my problem. I will keep you posted.
Author:  jaylach [ Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
I'll have to check mine.
Author:  bbarry [ Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
It's been 5-1/2 hours now and no crashes (knock on wood). Why in the world would Microsoft muck around with my USB settings?

Also, the last two times I came to Computer Haven, I had to log in. In fact, this last time I had to play the numbers in the block game. Why is that? Something else Microsoft screwed up?
Author:  jaylach [ Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
I'm not seeing the log-in issue. The only time you should see the number blocks is if you click on register.

As to the USB resetting it is possible that the update included something to do with USB causing the reset. Just a guess... :dunno:

<edit>
Just checked and some of my USB were checked and some not.
Author:  bbarry [ Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
When I was asked to log in, I probably did accidentally click on register once.

You said some of your USBs were checked and some were not. Were they always this way? I thought back last year when we were having this same conversation that all of yours were unchecked just like you had me do. So did the Windows Quality Update cause some of your boxes to be re-checked?
Author:  jaylach [ Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
I THINK they were all unchecked but I can't remember for sure. Nor can I know when they became checked again if they did. Still, I'm pretty sure they were all unchecked.
Author:  bbarry [ Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
The problem of system hangs has reared its ugly head again, where my keyboard and mouse become useless until I power off and back on. I'm in the process of trying to determine the cause.

But with each of these recent hangs, I noticed that my system clock stopped. Perhaps they did before when I was experiencing the same problem, but I just never noticed.

Is it common for the clock to stop when the system hangs like that?
Author:  jaylach [ Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Yes, if the system 'hangs' it would be common for the clock to not update.

Check you power settings again for the hard drives/USB being allowed to be turned off.
Author:  bbarry [ Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
Thanks, Jay. I did check the hard drives/USBs, and they are still not allowing the computer to be turned off. So I am scratching my head and looking elsewhere.
Author:  jaylach [ Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: System Crashes after Win 10 Quality Updates
bbarry wrote:
Thanks, Jay. I did check the hard drives/USBs, and they are still not allowing the computer to be turned off. So I am scratching my head and looking elsewhere.

If the device settings are all intact I really just don't get it. You might want to check the power settings on other devices such as the network adapter and audio. Also make sure that the ability for the device to be turned off is disabled directly through the mice and keyboards tabs in Device Manager, not just the USB settings. With turning off the device disabled under the USB settings the mouse and keyboard setting should automatically match but make sure.

I can't remember, do you allow the system to go to sleep? If so try disabling sleep mode in Power Settings. Usually with laptops but I have seen sleep mode cause issues in the past.

Again I can't remember. Does this happen on any other system that is basically setup the same?
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