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 Post Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:11 pm 
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Sorry it's so frustrating for you, Peter, but these are self-inflicted wounds. You wanna do beta, you pay the price. It's not something you have to do, and it certainly isn't valid to complain about it - especially when you are not stating what the real issue is. It is just tantamount to more Microsoft bashing.

What is that famous line? Do not ask for whom the bell tolls... ;)

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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:38 am 
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Hi Patty

I thought I'd let this sit until after Xmas, as I assumed you were having a bad day. So let me state the facts.

1. 99% of the beta testing I do is on Win 7 Pro X64 and the system updates go just fine.

2. On the image of Win 10 Pro X64 which is the desktop update to the standard Win 10 build, whatever you have. All the software on it is released software, and all of it is certified for windows 10. So here is the real issue. I restore the system and all is well and windows 10 says there are updates. I let them download, and go thru the installation, and the installation fails. So I just leave it and restore back to win 7. Do the same thing the next day and get the same result. Do it again on the 3rd day, and the updates work. Happening once wouldn't be an issue, but it's relatively common place. So is this my fault, and am I MS bashing?

3. On my Win 10 Pro X 64 I do the only software on it right now is MB3. Now they say it's released but I disagree, and if you wander over to the MB forum you will see I am not the only one. Do a post, this morning, and by the end of the day it will be off the page. My setup on the VM is the same as yours, except for the insider builds. Ironically I tried to turn off the insider builds, but windows told me I needed an internet connection, which I had as I could go on line with Firefox. Using Insider Builds can be frustrating. I understand the long install times, but it's the failure problems and re doing them that causes the frustration. And yes it's my choice to test them.

But Patty here there is a bit of humorous irony in the timing of your comments. The latest Insider Build is a release candidate, so it will be soon coming to a computer near you. I sincerely hope you don't experience any issues.

Oh, there was another update after I posted and this one went very smoothly, so maybe the new build fixed some things. Time will tell.

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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:45 am 
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Now back to the ransomware testing. I am abandoning the MB part of the test. There are just to many issues with MB3, and I can't use it on my desktops, due to the imaging issues. When they get that fixed, I will take another look. If anyone is interested I will describe what I am using and continue


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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:45 am 
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OK, Pete. First, I wasn't having a bad day, I was having a fine day.

You say your system was the same as mine except for the Insider Builds. That exception is the issue in question - and my opinion on that stands.

Friends is not an issue. This isn't personal, we are talking about technical facts. I'll need to go back up this thread to look at earlier postings and can't do that without losing this response. I'll have to come back to it.

Added after re-reading the entire thread. So this is a long thread. The only thing I see differently after re-reading it, is that you did state that you had the update issue on an Insider Build, something I missed the first time. My apologies.

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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:56 pm 
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Hi Patty

No problems, it's easy to miss stuff. On the subject of beta's a thought. Consider the state of software you get, regardless of the source, if people weren't willing to beta test. Yep sometimes it's risky but that's how problems are found.


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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:12 pm 
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I know, Pete. Betas and I go way back to the original Windows 98 through Windows 7. That was enough for me though. ;)

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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:08 pm 
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Peter, please continue to beta test because I know that you not only enjoy it but also that MANY respectable companies come to you to help them. But, and you know what I am about to say so please forgive me: Don't release betas on the rest of us until, well, they are no longer betas. :whew:

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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:26 pm 
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Acadia. I don't, and wouldn't

Patty I had to chuckle. I have had a few adventures. Most notable was and adventure with Shadowprotect where a bug in the recovery environment caused not only the c: drive to be deleted, but all of them including the one the image was on. Few sleepless nights on that one.


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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:59 pm 
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I can imagine, Peter. Back in the old days I had 3 different types of backup (different types of media). I needed to restore some data. The first two backups failed. The third did not. ;) Whew.

I had Shadowprotect fail me when I needed it. Ditto with Acronis. Gave up on 3rd party imaging. The one program that never did fail was Partition Magic. Remember that one? I only stopped using it because they stopped developing it. Damn shame.

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:51 pm 
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MacDuffie wrote:
I can imagine, Peter. Back in the old days I had 3 different types of backup (different types of media). I needed to restore some data. The first two backups failed. The third did not. ;) Whew.

I had Shadowprotect fail me when I needed it. Ditto with Acronis. Gave up on 3rd party imaging. The one program that never did fail was Partition Magic. Remember that one? I only stopped using it because they stopped developing it. Damn shame.

Yes, for me the neatest thing in pc technology the past 10 years or so has not been the advancement of pc security, that HAD to happen or else all of us would no longer be using anything online, but the evolution of pc backups. There are so many good ones now days, I'm not even sure what to recommend anymore, depends upon your situation and system. In fact, the only thing that stopped me from jumping to an Apple iMac several months ago (I came within one click from purchasing) was, How in the world do I restore my iMac?

Third party programs, at least when it comes to restoring a trashed system, can sometimes be superior to what MS offers us.

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:24 pm 
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Hi Patty

Just curious, have you tested Macrium Reflect. It is in a class apart. Let me recap

Shadowprotect. I did a huge amount of testing most of it on Raid 0 systems. Never a failure on released versions. Now it's the slowest kid on the block

Image for Windows. Rock have never had a restore failure. Speed a hair better then SP

Acronis. The king of bloat. Acronis 7 installs 4gb of stuff, mostly designed to sell you stuff. Latest feature: Incremental back up of your facebook account. I do use Acronis, but I don't have it installed. I only use it from the Restore Environment, and so far so good.

Macrium. The speed demon and also the reliablility master. Although the didn't do a beta they slipped the new versions to a few of us on Wilders. The Froggie(Therollbackfrog) and I put it thru the wringer. Did some awful things. For example: People generally don't go beyond 20 incrementals in a chain. I went out to over 80. No issue. One test I did was take a utility Raxco has to un defrag a disk. It really scrambles it. So I started it and then took an incremental. Took longer, but the image took, and then I restored it. Restore was quick and it put the disk back into the state it was in. Another test: Started another imaging program and then took a macrium incremental. Bit on the slow side but it worked and restored. Also have started restores, waited a bit of time and hit the power reset. Re ran the restore and it was fine.

What more can I say.

Patty I gather you haven't had much success with imaging programs. I might what is wrong, but it would take a phone call. If you are interested let me know.


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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:03 am 
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Hi Peter,

I recall your having a Macrium failure. ;) It's documented somewhere on CH. Anyway, I have done perfectly well with Windows Imaging, though I did have one failure there also. It's not as crucial these days with Windows 10. My data is super safe as far as backups go. Windows 10 is pretty much self-repairing. I still do my images though.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:48 pm 
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Patty, a couple of things. If memory serves me correctly, it was ShadowProtect and not Macrium that let Peter down several years ago. I don't believe Peter was even using Macrium in those days. Macrium has NEVER let Peter down, Peter can correct me if I am wrong. ShadowProtect let me down once and guess what saved me, I've stated this before at the Haven: the built-in Windows7 imaging backup. That is why I am such a firm believer in multiple backups, and why I never made the jump to an Apple iMac. There just weren't enough reliable backup programs for the iMac.

Now please understand that I have never had Win10 installed anywhere so I am completely unfamiliar with it. How is Win10 self-repairing? Can it repair you from a ransomware infection?

Now my final question is just a matter of curiosity, not judgement. What backup programs are you using these days? There are now so many good ones.

Acadia

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:11 pm 
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Acadia is correct, and it was a beta not a released version..

Patty I am curious. How big is your drive and how long does it take to image it?


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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:13 pm 
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@ Acadia: In Win 10 basically the Win XP repair install is back where you can completely re-install the OS without losing any data. Keep in mind that this is not a total save as you would need to re-install your programs but at least you can reset Windows and keep your data. Personally I don't believe this would work with a ransomware attack that encrypted your data. Windows may or may not succeed in resetting but I would think that your data would still be encrypted. The last is just speculation as I have never experienced the situation where ransomware had encrypted my files.

I still feel that images and redundant data backups are the best way to go as to backups alone, not including security.

@ Pete: Let's test out my memory. If I am not mistaken Patty is using two 1 TB Hitachi Deskstar drives for her R.A.I.D. Mirror array. This would mean that her drive size is 1 TB. LOL! How is my memory Patty? :)

Pete, I DO have to ask where the 4 GB of the Acronis install resides as I just checked the install folder for my Acronis 2017 and it lists as 475 MB...

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:32 pm 
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I'm certain it was Macrium. Jay, you PM'ed me about it. Remember?

I use Windows File History and SyncToy to external drive. All my drives are 1 TB drives - yes, Jay, you're right. ;) Then I manually copy (or SyncToy) everything but sensitive data up to OneDrive as well. Then I do images every couple of weeks, but that is just the system drive, it doesn't do data. I don't want my data on my system drive. And then there is my RAID mirror, of course.

In addition, my phone is an extra backup for all of my Outlook data (contacts, calender, email), as well as all of my music - which is also copied to two different Zunes. Most of my day-to-day email is online at outlook.com.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:30 pm 
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@ Patty: Yes I remember such a discussion but do not remember details. I think it possible that it is a case of beta verses release versions. If I read things right it may have been that Pete's Macrium failure might have been a beta release. I'm not really sure but that seems very possible. :)

Sounds like we do similar backups except that I do an Acronis image every night... or morning... as it is scheduled at 4:00 AM. I do a windows image three times a week. Both are full images as I don't like the idea of incremental... More files equals more chance of error. :mrgreen:

As to my data drive I sync now and then between my main system and my laptop but only if I have done a major data change. For the most part One Drive handles it for me as to general data as One Drive automatically syncs and both systems use the same One Drive storage. It seems to work for me. :)

@ Pete: I just MAY have some info you can possibly use... I decided to experiment. :)

In another thread I mentioned that I lost Outlook and gave the cure. I did leave out a step I tried as it did not seen to matter in that case. I tried an Acronis image restore from within Windows and it failed three straight times. It was then that I tried the Office repair that solved the issue.

If you want to play it MAY prove that the image created while MBAM 3 is running is actually fine but the restore, if started from Windows is what fails. I think that it is the ransomware module that causes the issue. It just may be that when an image restore is started from within Windows the MBAM ransomware module sees this as potential ransomware. Following is what I did... Keep in mind that I am NOT running MBAM 3 but the latest version of MBAM 2 which seems to include the ransomware module. This info only applies to Acronis 2017. Also keep in mind that I have only tried this in Windows 10.

1) Tried doing an image restore three times when having the Outlook issue without success. It would allow the start from Windows 10 but after the needed re-start it would just boot to Windows. Since the recent version of MBAM 2.X SEEMS to include the ransomware module it made me think of your saying that MBAM 3.x interfered with images.

2) So what seems to be in common here? I would say the inclusion of the ransomware module.

3) I was over confident here but was correct in my assumption in my case. Don't ask me how but, at times, I just know without a reason to know. I knew that the following would work and it did. I didn't even bother to turn off MBAM and create a separate image. I opened Acronis 2017 and created a boot disk. I booted to this disk and there were zero image restore options shown. I refreshed the list and my images were there. Selected the most recent and went for broke. Zero issue as the image restore went 100% fine.

If you want to play in the way I did go ahead and create the image with MBAM running but only try the restore from boot media. Since I am not running MBAM 3.X I cannot predict the results but think that it may help...

Just to throw some numbers I have to say that the image restore from boot media using Acronis 2017 was quite nice. :) My OS drive is only 94.5 GB as I like to keep it lean and clean. There IS 'productive' software installed on the OS drive but such things as most games are installed on my data drive.

Anyway booting to the restore media (Optical drive in my case) I selected to do a sector by sector restore of the OS drive. Total time from selecting to do the restore from the boot media to being at my restored desktop was ~10 minutes.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:18 am 
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Hi Jay

1. I went back installed the Acronis 2017 again. I didn't see the same thing. 2 possible causes. First this time I stopped at the entering the license point, where as before I took it all the way and image. The 2nd possibility, was I simply mis read it. Just check in Programdata.

2. They have indeed added some ransomware stuff in two, but it didn't cause any issues. The ransomware module is a problem, and it causes problems with VSS. When you image VSS opens a good sized file in the SVI folder on the root of the drive. When the imaging is done and VSS closes it should delete that file, and it doesn't. The cause is the new mb3 ransomware module. Marcin put in touch with the guy who works on it and he didn't really even understand VSS so it's going to be interesting.

Let me repeat: Even though the released it there are enough major bugs it should be considered beta software. Don't believe me go to their forum.

Go now the macrium issue. I searched the forum and found it. I had mentioned I had an issue with my Lenovo laptop and I fixed it with Macrium. Patty asked me if I sure that macrium was the problem. The lenovo tech new macrium and he didn't think so and neither do I. So I will stand by I've never had a macrium failure.

Why I asked about Patty's disk size was I was curious how much data it contained, to try and get an estimate of image time. To me time is money.

On my business machine, I take incrementals on the hour. With 80gb of data average incremental time is 39 seconds. Restore time is about a minute. So compare that with a windows repair.

Say on incrementals what I do is during the day mr takes incrementals. Then at the end of the day I take a differential. Macrium keeps 4 diffs and cleans up the incrementals behind it.

I've never had any trouble with incrementals. I routinely go to 25. When testing I took it out to 60 and didn't have any problems. I use incrementals on IFW and IOMEI, and I test restore once a week. Again no issues with Increments.


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:39 am 
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You just lost me... Your last post just makes zero sense to me. Just in a few cases you say that you installed Acronis 2017 but did not validate. You state that you stopped at the point of entering a code... How can you possibly say that the system fails when you did not validate the install? Mayhaps I'm missing something but this makes zero sense to me?

You are wrong that the ransomware inclusion in MBAM's recent 2.XX upgrade does not cause issues as it does. Any attempt to restore an image from within Windows 10 will fail in Acronis. Still Acronis still works if a restore is launched from a boot. I HAVE proven this.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:33 am 
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Arg Post lost.

Jay, what I was saying about the installation was just related to the size of the install...nothing else. I tested nothing.

On the 2nd point, I am not sure it has any thing to due with mbam. I tried once to restore from windows with Acronis 2016 on Win 7. This was before I even used mbam. It was an awful mess. I won't even image from the desktop installed version. Absolutely only way I will use Acronis is doing everything from the Recovery Environment (CD or USB)

If you want to test and prove something, uninstall mbam completely and then try again with a new image.

The only effect from MB3 is on the VSS stuff in the SVI folder. It should delete and it doesn't. Confirmed to be from mb3. Not a problem with mb2


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:08 am 
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Pete and Jay - thanks for clearing that up for me.

Pete, my data drive has around 355 GBs on it - but as I said, I don't image that.

As far as Windows 10 goes, yes, it is somewhat self-healing. Windows 7 was also, but 8 was moreso and 10 even more. Plus your "product key" is tied to your Windows account now so you don't need to go scrambling to find it if you need to reinstall. Love that. And all of your apps anyway, will automatically download and reinstall. So it's just a matter of Office and a few key programs to worry about. It's just not the horrendous deal it used to be. The other thing is that if you can reinstall online, you get the latest build. And if you've got Office 365, you get the latest build as well.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:44 pm 
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Yep that is one heck of a bunch of data. One of my 2 internals has 2 VM machines and the total space is about 720gb. No way on imaging that.

On the rebuild think about what you described. I can restore an image which puts a messed up system back together in about 2-3 minutes.


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:20 pm 
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You know, time isn't the issue it used to be, Peter. And, that is *if* I ever have to do it. I'll take my chances, and save the wear and tear on my drives.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:56 pm 
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I am truly glad for you on that Patty. Not quite true for me, so I chose a debt free appoach. Funny I asked Velocity Micro about the drive wear issue, and they said don't worry. So far they have been correct. I suspect it is partly due to how they place the drives in the fan air stream.


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:11 pm 
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Yes, I certainly understand the "time is money" concept from the years of running my own business. Is Velocity Micro the hard drive maker? Is that HDD or SSD?

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