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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:52 pm 
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This is likely going to sound and read like Microsoft bashing even though i don't mean it to be, but i can't find any other way to type what I'm thinking and how strongly i feel about it... Microsoft have really dropped the ball with Windows 10 in my opinion and no matter how much they try to spin the rhetoric they should not be allowed to get away with it...

Marisa Rogers and Terry Myerson of Microsoft have published a blog on the MS website entitled "Windows 10 privacy journey continues: more transparency and controls for you", subtitled "Introducing three new things that will empower customers to be more informed about their privacy in Windows 10."
c.f. https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperi ... s-for-you/

Even though i don't have or use Windows 10 in any form, the amount of data that Win10 collects (or has collected in the past) as revealed in the article above is alarming and shocking in my opinion, to the point that it's all but made up my mind that when Win7 reaches end of life i will no longer be using Windows as an OS unless they drastically move away from their current model.

To get to the grit of the article you need to drill down into links supplied in this paragraph:
Quote:
For the first time, we have published a complete list of the diagnostic data collected at the Basic level. Individual data points that relate to a specific item or event are collected together and called Events. These are further organized into diagnostic areas. We are also providing a detailed summary of the data we collect from users at both Basic and Full levels of diagnostics.
i.e. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=845809 and https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=845810

As for the final paragraph in the blog...
Quote:
I’m proud of the team’s work here and our continued commitment to your privacy. I’m also appreciative of the great feedback we’ve received from our customers along this journey. You inspire us every day to innovate and deliver a great product that respects your privacy choices. This feedback – in line with the feedback we have received from the European Union’s Article 29 Working Party and national data protection authorities that have specifically engaged us on Windows 10 – was essential for Microsoft to identify and implement improvements in our privacy practices.

... words fail me that any employee of Microsoft should be proud of such a horrendous invasion of privacy, and who then goes on to claim to appreciate a third party for highlighting their dereliction of duty, when it should not be happening or never have happened in the first place, it just beggars belief.


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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:18 pm 
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The fact of the matter is that you have the ability to turn it off.

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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:35 pm 
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Yes you can turn it off and then selectively select specific apps to have access to what is needed. The only two that I enable is 'location' for weather and news. For myself I don't consider it an issue.

My only real issue is that it is all opt out instead of opt in. The average user is just not going to know to opt out. In fact the average user is likely to not even know that there are privacy settings.

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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:00 pm 
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I agree with Steve.....it's only an issue if you let it become an issue. And if you aren't using Windows 10, it shouldn't be an issue. And if you are using Windows 10, you can turn telemetry collection off.

That said, I agree with Jay that it is an 'opt out' feature, which some users don't like and may not even understand.

I found this article by Brian Lich to be pretty informative regarding the different levels of 'telemetry data' that Microsoft collects, and how you can configure the collection level on your system:
https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/win ... ganization


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 Post Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:22 am 
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Hmmm, interesting. Knowing nothing about Win10, I did not know this. Perhaps this is one way Microsoft is making up for lost revenue with stopping the selling of future OSs buy selling our privacy; it's been done before! I wonder if Apple is also doing this? Gosh, who can you trust anymore? Even if you can turn off that feature, most newbies, most EVERYONE does not know this.

Acadia

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 Post Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:03 pm 
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sboots wrote:
The fact of the matter is that you have the ability to turn it off.
-steve

How? As far as i can tell this is not an option for Home or Pro users, the Diagnostic options being Basic or Full, there is no Off.

c.f.
Quote:
My biggest beef? There's still no "Telemetry Off" option, no ability to say, "Golly, thanks, but my machine's OK without sending you 1,966 pieces of info."
http://www.infoworld.com/article/318800 ... metry.html

Quote:
This Microsoft TechNet document, last updated this week, claims all desktop and mobile builds of Windows 10 can choose between four different snooping levels: just security-related collection; basic mode; enhanced mode; and full mode. However, the security-only level is "limited to Windows 10 Enterprise, Windows 10 Education, Windows 10 Mobile Enterprise, Windows 10 IoT Core (IoT Core), and Windows Server 2016." And Enhanced doesn't seem to be available from the new user interface.

So for Home and Pro users, it's still some slurping or full-fat slurping.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/04/06/microsoft_windows_10_creators_update/


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 Post Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:52 pm 
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Doddie wrote:
sboots wrote:
The fact of the matter is that you have the ability to turn it off.
-steve

How? As far as i can tell this is not an option for Home or Pro users, the Diagnostic options being Basic or Full, there is no Off.


For Telemetry information, yes. Basic or Full. With Basic telemetry, there is no personally identifiable information collected.

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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:07 am 
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This new Creator Build is interesting but that is coming from someone who has never used Win10. Been reading some reviews about it. On the few that I read, everyone really likes it, a lot. PC Magazine says, "Windows 10 joins macOS as an Editor's Choice desktop operating system".

Even with the minor? privacy issues, perhaps time to again start considering a new pc. After all there, depressingly, isn't any real privacy left anymore.

Acadia

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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:51 am 
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I just read this article referenced by Doddie, including many of the Comments.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/04/06 ... rs_update/

It certainly appears that many of our friends across the pond don't like Microsoft's Windows 10, even those who have never used it. IMHO, there is a simple solution.....if you don't like it, don't buy/use it.

@Doddie - You started this thread by stating: "This is likely going to sound and read like Microsoft bashing even though i don't mean it to be.". You are correct - your every word, quote, and reference does nothing but bash Microsoft and Windows 10. Since you are a professed non-user of Windows 10 (now and forever), your objective is unclear to me. Are you simply hoping to discourage your friends and neighbors from using Windows 10?


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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:17 am 
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The fact is this, and it really is a fact: If you never switch to Win10 then you eventually either have to go to Apple or Linux. Both Apple and Linux are viable and excellent solutions but boy, the learning curve. Believe me, I tried Linux four times. Bought three books on how to convert from Windows to Apple. Again, both are excellent, but if you have only used Windows for almost two decades like me, the learning curve is daunting.

Eventually your pc is going to die. Then what do you do? Your new pc, unless you switch to Apple or Linux, WILL have Windows 10. And if Microsoft keeps improving it like they have been, maybe that will not be such a bad thing.

Please note: I do NOT want to deter anyone from switching to Apple, EXCELLENT operating system. Fact is, easier to find folks switching from Win to Apple then from Apple to Win, and that is counting the fact that so many more folks use Win. Apple fans are loyal for a reason. But besides the learning curve, I still have not figured out how to protect and backup/recover an iMac reliably. Too many excellent programs for Windows that allow you to protect and backup/recover. (Not to mention the fact that iMacs are #%@^ expensive).

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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:48 pm 
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I probably should have made the following link a separate thread but what the heck as this thread does concern privacy. This is from the MBAM monthly newsletter.

https://blog.malwarebytes.com/security- ... t-yourself

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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Acadia wrote:
I still have not figured out how to protect and backup/recover an iMac reliably. Too many excellent programs for Windows that allow you to protect and backup/recover. (Not to mention the fact that iMacs are #%@^ expensive).
Acadia

Acadia, I am also one of those users of Microsoft Windows for over two decades (actually, three decades in my case). But several years ago I decided to purchase and learn an iMac. Although it was an uphill task, I rather enjoyed it. I still have my iMac, and occasionally I will give my Win 10 computer a rest and go play with the iMac. However, it's been awhile, so I am a little rusty, lol.

You asked about backup/recovery and protection on an iMac. Apple's Time Machine (with one or more external drives) is a good mechanism for backing up and restoring all your data files. However, Time Machine doesn't allow you to backup/restore your entire disk. But there are 3rd-party programs that let you do this.......I used 'Carbon Copy Cleaner' and 'Super Duper'. Apple also has its own 'Disk Utility' program for doing this. Here is a website that talks about all these programs.
https://www.lifewire.com/mac-backup-sof ... es-2260931

Same goes for security programs......several exist for the Mac, including BitDefender, Sophos, Avast, etc. Here is a website that talks about these programs.
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/best-antivi ... 588-6.html

Sorry, but I can't help you on the #%@^ prices. :cboy1:


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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:26 am 
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bbarry, thanks for all that info. I mentioned three books that I purchased to learn an iMac if I ever got one. One of those books was Backing Up Your Mac by Joe Kissell. He mentions many programs including all that you mention but he finds faults with most, if not all, of them. If I remember correctly, he says you can restore an entire drive with Time Machine but he says it is quite difficult and EXTREMELY slow, taking many hours.

With Windows, I can name 8 excellent programs that are extremely reliable right off the top of my head. I find myself again leaning heavy toward Win10. I am making my third configuration of a system in recent weeks at Puget Systems. Maybe this time I will really cave in and spend some money.
Acadia

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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:16 am 
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Acadia, I haven't read the book by Kissel, but as you know someone is going to find fault with anything computer related. Although I've backed up my iMac several times several years ago, I've never had reason to do a restore (unlike Pete and maybe you, I don't practice restores, lol).

But don't get me wrong........although I've enjoyed my iMac, I wouldn't give up my Win 10 computer for anything. So please don't think I'm pushing Apple over Microsoft.


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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:24 am 
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bbarry wrote:
So please don't think I'm pushing Apple over Microsoft.

No, no, never thought that and even if I did I wouldn't blame you. Fact is, Win10 if it continues to improve like it has, and Apple, and now on equal pars, well in my opinion, remember I have never used either one. I am only sticking to Windows because I know more about it but people out there adore Apple for a reason (and they are all probably wealthier than me).
Acadia

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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:57 pm 
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I only have a few things to say about Apple and none are meant to be bashing at all.

1) Over priced for what you get but, if the market share were reversed, it would probably be a Windows machine that would be over priced for what you get.

2) I don't like that you are restricted to Apple hardware, if that is still totally true. I prefer to be able to pick and choose between manufacturer's of components.

3) To be honest I am speaking from just looking as I've never owned an Apple device. The closest I've come was to run a couple of Apple emulators years ago. Still, from everything I've read and seem, I consider them to be a well built and decent machine even though restrictive on the hardware side. At times I've been tempted to get one just to play and learn but the price has stopped me. Even a refurbished or re-certified Apple from Newegg or Tiger Direct would cost more than a comparable brand new Windows system.

BTW, this thread started as Windows 10 privacy... and is tending toward an Apple discussion. LOL! Have we not always been totally on-topic from first to last post in a thread... :rofl2: Haven't reached the point yet, but close, to where I would feel it needed to split the Apple part to its own thread. Actually such a thread might be interesting. If the thread does end up split please do not think that anything wrong was done as to posts. Some of our best threads have happened due to a conversation going on a tangent and being split. :)

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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:26 pm 
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jaylach wrote:
BTW, this thread started as Windows 10 privacy... and is tending toward an Apple discussion. :)


It's all Acadia's fault, lol! :cboy1:


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 Post Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:46 pm 
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bbarry wrote:
@Doddie - You started this thread by stating: "This is likely going to sound and read like Microsoft bashing even though i don't mean it to be.". You are correct - your every word, quote, and reference does nothing but bash Microsoft and Windows 10. Since you are a professed non-user of Windows 10 (now and forever), your objective is unclear to me. Are you simply hoping to discourage your friends and neighbors from using Windows 10?

My "objective" was merely to highlight the recently disclosed amount and type of data that Microsoft is potentially collecting from users of windows 10, it's that simple.

I have no hidden agenda such as discouraging friends and neighbours from using Windows 10 but i was fully aware that some might read my post that way which is why i tried to distance myself from anyone thinking that's what was i doing... sadly that appears to have failed.

For the record, i never "professed" to being a "non-user of Windows 10 (now and forever)", i said "when Win7 reaches end of life i will no longer be using Windows as an OS unless they drastically move away from their current model"... there's a world of difference between what you think i said and what i actually said.

FWIW, and this is not meant as an endorsement in any shape or form.... if i did move away from Windows as an OS it would be highly unlikely it would be to Apple,.. the learning curve, limitations and cost have always put me off, that and I've never actually sat in front of one so would have no idea what to expect let alone how to turn one on! :lol:

If i felt i had to move to a new OS it would almost certainly be to Linux, I've dabbled with Linux over the years but i just couldn't tear myself away from the ease that the of the out of the box experience Microsoft OS's supplied... that said, i looked at Linux Mint a year or so ago and was massively surprised at the progress made in both 3rd party application support and ease of installation, whether that would be enough for me to write off Windows as an OS only time will tell... Win7 still has life in it yet and who knows where Win10 will be when that ends ;)


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 Post Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:50 pm 
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Hi, Doddie. I don't know that you failed. :-) I didn't see you as bashing Microsoft or having a hidden agenda to discourage people from using Windows 10. However, this: "horrendous invasion of privacy" does seem harsh to me. ;-) An invasion of privacy, to me, involves collecting personal information. The telemetry data isn't personal "personal" information that can be tied back to a specific user -- with the exception of some data tied to a Microsoft account. That, however, isn't unlike pretty much any other service one signs into. The telemetry data is diagnostic/usage information used for bulk analysis that is used to improve performance and stability. The marketing stuff collected with a Microsoft Account is used for targeted ads, but one can opt out of that. Granted, it is on by default, but that's again the way it is pretty much with any service these days.
It is, of course, your choice to avoid Windows 10 and to advise others on how to opt out of the data collection.
Personally, I feel that the benefits I gain from using Windows 10 with the upload of telemetry data and usage data far outweigh any privacy concerns that I might have.
:-D
-steve

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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:46 pm 
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Hi Steve,

On reflection i possibly was a bit harsh with some of my words but i really couldn't believe what i was reading, especially with regards to the Full telemetry level...
(c.f. https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/win ... ostic-data)

I won't go through the whole list or i'll be typing all night but a few examples of things that in my opinion MS definitely do NOT need to know and that are quite frankly none of their damn business (whether or not it can be traced to who sits at the keyboard is irrelevant) include:

Content Consumption data
Pretty much ALL of this section

Inking Typing and Speech Utterance data
•Whether user is known to be a child

Licensing and Purchase data ~ Purchase history
•Offer details -- price
•Order requested date/time
•Store client type -- web or native client
•Purchase quantity and price
•Payment type -- credit card type and PayPal

At best i'd describe my reaction to this "transparency" as disappointing and i'll try and explain why i feel that way...

Microsoft Windows has always been an Operating System that end users trusted with their personal information, a practice that as far as i know has been the case for ALL reputable Operating Systems (include Apple, Linux etc.) ever... until now :(
i.e. They didn't knowingly "leak" or accumulate end user information.

The installation of 3rd party applications, and in some cases even applications from MS, did collect user information but for the most part they were up front about what they collected, in any case these were not Operating Systems and anyone that knows anything about computers knows to be wary about installing applications no matter where they came from.

Where the MS model appears to be moving is to muddy the waters between having a safe and secure OS to one that is constantly spying (to strong a word?) and collecting end user information for either their gain, or to sell onto, or be used by 3rd parties... as if an Operating System is now an application... and that does not sit well with me.

Whilst it's true that the digital world we live in is all about information, that is, where every man and their dog is trying to find out as much as they can about all of us whether by fair of foul means... for their gain!... the one constant has been the ability to format the OS and stop them in their tracks, take that away and, well there's no point in that OS any more.


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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:37 pm 
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Content Consumption, to the best of my knowledge, means Music, Movies, TV consumed through the related apps from Microsoft. I don't believe that this relates to your general web browsing.
Inking and Speech are used to improve the experience, so I'm okay with that.
The Purchase History is for the Store and your Microsoft Account. Since the purchase is made through Microsoft, it only makes sense that they will have/know this data related to your account. It doesn't mean purchases made from other sites.

-steve

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