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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:14 am 
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Was corresponding with a technician at Puget Systems yesterday, same tech who built my current system 5 years ago and would probably build my next one. Discovered that I can still get Win7 on a new system although I would have to jump thru some hoops, but can still be done. Then he said that he also still prefers Win7 to Win10. I asked him why? He replied, via email, "I like Windows 7 because it is designed to allow you to get your work done, and is fairly "simple". Windows 10 on the other hand appears to be designed to gather your information, to allow Microsoft to resell to third parties."

Is this true, is MS doing this?
Thanks, Acadia

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:54 am 
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I would be hard pressed to argue with him. I just did another install of Win 10 fcu on my play desktop. I had to stop most of my security software and the install took. It was horribly slow, so I updated all my drivers (oh Joy) and then it wasn't bad.

I then tried to play some music thru the new "Grove" player. Constantly harrased with sigh up with this service, play this tune or that album. Grove went in to the trash bin of microsoft stupidity, although I understand they are responding to the current generation of stupid.

That being said, I am finding upgrading current win 7 computers isn't something I'd do, but if I was buying new computers I would probably go with win10. Reason. More and more stuff is being made/written for win 10 and in 5 years you would probably have trouble finding stuff that will work with win 7. I don't like it but that's reality.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Thanks, Peter. Well, everyone states that privacy is dead anymore on the Internet. And whenever I have upgraded to the latest OS, I have always been happy in the end. Getting a new system with Win10 will also be much less expensive.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:06 pm 
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A few points...

1) Cannot prove that they are not but would be shocked it it were proven that MS was selling telemetry data.

2) Except for diagnostics telemetry it can all be turned off durring and/or after install/upgrade.

3) Windows 7 will reach end of life on January 14, 2020. That is less than 1.25 years. Mainstream support ended on January 13, 2015 but still gets security updates until January 14, 2020. If you buy with Windows 7 you will be buying Windows 10 a year later at a price of close to $200.00 for the Pro version. Probably $150.00 or less for OEM.

<edit>
Actually, on eBay, I have found Windows 10 Pro for under $10.00 but I would not trust. I don't know if it is still the case but eBay sellers used to be known for bogus software sales. Read that as bootleg.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:24 pm 
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Interesting observations and experiences.
Windows 10 can certainly be said to aid in allowing a user to "find" things -- Cortana, integrated search, etc.
Windows 10 does have advertising included in many of the apps. However, they can be eliminated through buying the app or subscription.
As for selling your information to 3rd parties, I have to call that bogus. https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacy This statement is nonsense that continues to be spread by people who dislike Microsoft and/or hate that they have been told to stop using XP. :-P
As for Groove, it should have updated as the service is going to be be discontinued. Groove is suggesting that users sign up for Spotify. The Groove player can play your local music just fine without any subscription.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Actually Steve I consider the telemetry a good thing as to the diagnostics aspect to be specific. My main system uses a pretty killer AMD Sapphire video card that has an icon in the notification area. Problem was that after about 30 seconds after on my desktop if I hovered over that icon it would just go away. I still had access to the settings through the right click context menuu on an empty part of my desktop but it was still a flaw.

With the fall 2017 upgrade that minor issue is gone. Is it not possible that the diagnostics telemetry feedback helped in this? ;)

Shoot folks, Acadia is right in saying that there is no privacy on the net. I have my systems set to not allow requests from web sites yet I have recently bought a radio control boat and a dinette unit on-line. As soon as I did so most ads I see on sites refer to one or the other.

The internet is TV. If you think even TV through an antenna is private how do you explain how the networks know exactly how many people watched last years' Super Bowl?

<edit>
Search it... You can find exactly how many people watched the super Bowl 30-40 years ago. The privacy issues are not due to the Internet alone. Face it. The Internet is nothing more that another broadcast system. The issue is that the people doing the broadcasts want to see what everyone is watching so they can increase their share.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:18 pm 
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I also like the telemetry data. Having been closely involved with the developers and program management team at Microsoft for OneCare, which was the subscription security product that preceded Microsoft Security Essentials (now Windows Defender), I got to see first hand how critical telemetry data was to the team when addressing issues as the came up. Before bug reports, support cases, and the like were escalated, they already knew from the data if a signature update was having or causing problems. They were able to track upgrades, errors, and feature usage and using the data they could prioritize their efforts.
Yes, it is entirely possible that your icon issue was fixed due to telemetry information uploaded by your system and oodles of others with the same issue.
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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:38 am 
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LOL! Steve, I never thought that it was just MY icon issue. ;) Still it points to where the feedback actually helps. :)

Sigh... People think that all this telemetry data is a total invasion of privacy but it is not. Well... OK, some of it does send your usage as to tendencies of system usage. However there is zero personal info involved. Even these cases can be turned off sending nothing to MS.

From what I've seen every upgrade of Windows 10 has improved the operation of the OS. Please keep in mind that I was running Windows 10 before there was a Windows 10 available to the public. From day one till now every upgrade has done nothing but improve security and performance. Largely this continual increase of security and performance is directly related to the telemetry sent to MS.

Get real... ;) do you REALLY think that MS has a million people sitting at systems following what you are doing on your system? Of course they do not. What the telemetry really does is to let MS see where there are problems and, also, to let them see tendencies as to usage of apps. If one app shows a higher usage than another it will get more support. I see nothing wrong with this as it is giving support to the most usage.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:25 am 
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Ok, everyone, thanks, much appreciated.
Acadia

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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:33 pm 
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This is more like a sixpence worth than a tuppenceworth, just my thoughts and observations.

jaylach wrote:
The internet is TV. If you think even TV through an antenna is private how do you explain how the networks know exactly how many people watched last years' Super Bowl?

<edit>
Search it... You can find exactly how many people watched the super Bowl 30-40 years ago. The privacy issues are not due to the Internet alone. Face it. The Internet is nothing more that another broadcast system. The issue is that the people doing the broadcasts want to see what everyone is watching so they can increase their share.

By antenna I presume you are referring solely to terrestrial television?... I don't know how it works in the US but in the UK there is an organisation known as BARB (Broadcasters’ Audience Research Board) that collects this information, it would be way over my head to explain exactly how it works but suffice that the following page probably covers everything:

Have you ever wondered how BARB measures television viewing for the whole of the UK?:
http://www.barb.co.uk/about-us/how-we-do-what-we-do/
cf also: http://www.barb.co.uk/about-us/frequent ... questions/

Note that no data is transmitted via the antenna, meters installed by BARB are used to send the collected data.

That said, while BARB can and will collect data from satellite/cable boxes where people with those services have agreed to take part in the BARB service, you can probably be sure the satellite/cable boxes are sending back far more detailed information to the satellite/cable companies than BARB could ever dream of.

jaylach wrote:
Windows 7 will reach end of life on January 14, 2020. That is less than 1.25 years.

A typo? By my reckoning there are 27 months (give or take a couple of weeks) until Jan 14, 2020... or 2.25 years ;)

That also assumes MS doesn't extend EOL even further, something they have a track record for when users were stubborn to migrate to the latest OS.
FWIW, I have a feeling MS will NOT do this in 2020 for Win7 because they've pretty much put all their eggs in one basket with Win10 so hands will be tied to make Win10 a success.

sboots wrote:
Yes, it is entirely possible that your icon issue was fixed due to telemetry information uploaded by your system and oodles of others with the same issue.

As this appears to be hypothetical, it is equally entirely possible that AMD would have been aware of the issue without any telemetry from MS whatsoever and that it was simply resolved by an updated driver supplied to MS by AMD.

jaylach wrote:
Get real... ;) do you REALLY think that MS has a million people sitting at systems following what you are doing on your system? Of course they do not. What the telemetry really does is to let MS see where there are problems and, also, to let them see tendencies as to usage of apps. If one app shows a higher usage than another it will get more support. I see nothing wrong with this as it is giving support to the most usage.

I'm on the fence about MS collecting personal data which is why I'd rather have the option to completely disable the collection and/or sending of ANY telemetry before I go anywhere near Win10... the million people sitting in front of systems watching what I'm doing used to be an argument that fans of Google and Yahoo used to use... we know how that ended! ;)


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Jay, I don't know whether you are right or wrong but here's my problem. My business works well because we have our clients complete trust. And I know once that trust is broken it's almost impossible to get it back.

And I don't forgot the companies including Microsoft who participated in NSA's project Prism. Once exposed they all decried what am evil thing it was but until exposed they went along. They broke that trust with that action, so I can't trust Microsoft with what I keep private, hence I object to them collecting data without a way to completely turn of the collection.


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:00 pm 
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@ Doddie: Nope, not exactly a typo on the bad reference of 1.25 years till Windows 7 goes end of life... I just sort of time warped and forgot about 2018. ;) Thanks for the correction.

Valid points all around. :)

I just don't understand all the privacy concern regarding Windows 10. Unless I'm mistaken it all can be turned off except for the diagnostics telemetry. Personally I would allow that even if I could disable but I suppose argument could be made that it is still an invasion.

My only real gripes about any of the telemetry is that it is opt out, not opt in. I have said before that I believe that any such options should be opt in by law. That includes bundled stuff with 'free' software. Also, for a normal user, it would be hard to find all the settings if they even knew they were there. It is easy during install/upgrade as everything is on one set of screens but one still has to know to select custom settings instead of quick settings. Sorry but I don't recall the exact phrases for 'custom and quick settings'.

I just don't think that the main threat to privacy is Microsoft but the Internet in general. Consider that I have all telemetry turned off except for diagnostics and location for the weather and news apps. Also keep in mind that I see this whether in Windows 10 or 7. I also have Internet Explorer set to deny location requests from sites.

Now consider that my last three 'major' purchases on-line were my radio control car and boat along with my dinette set. If I go to a site with ads I see, to a very high degree, ads associated with my purchases. Is this caused my Microsoft? Of course I could be wrong but I just don't see it. ;) LOL! Mayhaps it's FedEx that is the culprit. After all they are the common denominator in all three purchases. :mrgreen:

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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:42 pm 
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jaylach wrote:
I just don't understand all the privacy concern regarding Windows 10. Unless I'm mistaken it all can be turned off except for the diagnostics telemetry. Personally I would allow that even if I could disable but I suppose argument could be made that it is still an invasion.

My only real gripes about any of the telemetry is that it is opt out, not opt in. I have said before that I believe that any such options should be opt in by law.

LOL, which side of the fence are you on again? :lol:

Sorry, I know that's cheeky but you kind of walked into it and I couldn't resist! ;)

Quote:
I just don't think that the main threat to privacy is Microsoft but the Internet in general.

I agree that I don't think they're the main threat, I sincerely hope they never will be, but they're now acting In a fashion that at the very least appears to be complicit.
Win10 is a sea change moment for Microsoft, and I personally don't like the direction the tide is now flowing. Whether or not my fears are founded only time will tell.
Quote:
Now consider that my last three 'major' purchases on-line were my radio control car and boat along with my dinette set. If I go to a site with ads I see, to a very high degree, ads associated with my purchases. Is this caused my Microsoft? Of course I could be wrong but I just don't see it. ;) LOL! Mayhaps it's FedEx that is the culprit. After all they are the common denominator in all three purchases. :mrgreen:

Ads? Ads are so passé with a half decent ad blocker ;)


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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Not really on either side of the fence. ;) I have never claimed that MS was perfect nor have I ever claimed there were no issues. I just think that some of the issues are exaggerated due to MS being such an easy target.

I don't bother with ad blockers. Nothing against the things, just never bothered. ;)

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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:26 pm 
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jaylach wrote:
I just think that some of the issues are exaggerated due to MS being such an easy target.

I'm not sure i'll be believed but most of my opinion about Win10 has been based on comments about Win10 found in these Forums.

It may be my reading of this board that's wrong but I can't help feeling that every time there's a new build of Win10 released it introduces problems... if I was reading the MS Answers Forums i'd expect to see people with an anti-MS bias but from what I've seen of the CH Forums you are all anything but anti-MS yet barely a week goes by without an issue surfacing with either legacy, or new, software.

Fwiw, I question a lot whether I should post much of what I do but I always come back to the same question/answer... are people not seeing what I'm seeing? So many issues yet no-one questions the validity of the OS?

MS rolls out lots of bells and whistles for Win10 it seems to me, but the actual backward compatibility is seriously lacking imo... indeed it's often lacking in current compatibility.

That I could understand when Win10 was first released, but it's no fledgling now and rather than addressing earlier issues it seems to be hell bent on introducing more and more issues... a prime example being why do some have issues with Office products... I'd have thought interoperability(sp?) between MS products would be the last to have issues.

That said, I might fall into the category that will never be satisfied, after all I wasn't happy with 98 until I was forced to use it until 95 went EOL (don't laugh, but I think the best build of any Windows OS was 98 Beta 3... it had flaws but it was by far the fastest running OS of anything I'd installed on my PC at that time).
Skipped dire builds until XP, skipped dire builds until 7... installing 7 SP1 was something I swore I'd never do so I'm somewhat surprised I am where I am... that said I'd go back to XP in a heartbeat if I could!

So, who knows, perhaps if MS get there fingers out... I don't rule out Win10 altogether but it'll have to come a long way.... meanwhile I am looking at Linux.


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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:13 pm 
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Not really sure how to answer but I'll try. ;)

Putting the last first, if you go Linux, use several Live Distros before actually installing. For those that don't know what a Live Distro happens to be it is a CD/DVD that is a fully operational version of the Linux operating system. Distro is just a term used for different versions of Linux; each version is a Distro.

I have not used Linux in several years and would expect that things have improved. When I used I found it totally frusterating. There were far more updates to do after install than with Windows. Also if there was an update that involved the kernel or core of Linux quite possibly software you have will no longer work. Can't remember the title but someone gave me a paid for game install and it worked fine. There was a kernel update and it no longer would work; nothing could be done and the CD was a frisbee.

I believe that Acadia ran Linux after I quit and may be able to give some insight as to more current situations with what I've said.

---------------------------------------------------------

I will only speak for myself as to not being anti MS but believe that my views are probably pretty common with the rest of the site staff. No I am not anti MS but I am fully aware that there are issues. I just think that Windows is the best option.

Yes there are issues even with Office on some Windows 10 upgrades. Still, if you remove the issues that involve end of life versions of Office, are there really that many? Honest question as I really don't know as I try to not associate one issue with another as that tends to confuse my feeble mind. ;)

As to compatibility issues I don't see much of it. Yes there is old software that will not work but a high percentage can be made to work using compatibility mode. Windows 10 offers compatibility modes back to Windows 95. Is it 100%? Of course not as nothing ever is. Still, as a test for a friend, I was able to run DOS 6.x software without much effort. Also there is an old RPG pair of games I like to still play now and then called Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2. These were written in the days of Windows 2000, possibly earlier. They still work just fine in Windows 10.

Actually a lot of old software that will not work no matter what is not due to the actual software but the installer. Newer versions of Windows just cannot run 16 bit software. Many third party vendors wrote some nice 32 bit packages but still used a 16 bit installer. Is it really the fault of MS that these vendors did not follow guide lines put out by MS? Even with all that I have gotten a fair number of such titles to work. Granted that I got them to work using methods that a normal user could not do.

Again I am not a Windows advocate and DO have issues with what MS is currently doing. I just do not see a better option for myself or a normal user. I could deal with Linux as I'm sure that you could also do but I would never put it in the hands of a novice from my former experience. Then there is Apple. Nice systems but, in my opinion, way over priced. Also, unless things have changed, you can only use Apple hardware.

--------------------------------------------

Oh Doddie, I will agree that Windows 10 is not the best version ever but have to draw the line at Windows 98! :mrgreen: Until Windows 7 I always considered Windows 2000 the best version. Now I consider Windows 7 the best build in just about all aspects except security.

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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:32 am 
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Doddie, if you can get Linux working as smooth as Windows, your a better man than me. I'm not saying that it can't be done, I know two people who use only Linux, have for years. They must be smarter than me. I played with Linux for quite some time both in a virtual machine and actually installed on my system. I simply got tired of jumping thru hoops to get everything to work. With Windows everything simply works, two monitors, cds, printer, everything just works. I could get it all to work in Linux also but it was so difficult. And you think MS Monthly Updates are bad (I agree) just wait until you try Linux, yes Linux has monthly updates too. Maybe things have improved with Linux, its been almost 10 years since I last played.

If you really want to leave Windows I would suggest an Apple iMac, if you can afford one, also you have to start learning security and backing up all over again.

Patty, just in case you did not see it, I left you a post in Other Items, Creator Fall Update.

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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:53 am 
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jaylach wrote:
Not really sure how to answer but I'll try. ;)


Oh Doddie, I will agree that Windows 10 is not the best version ever but have to draw the line at Windows 98! :mrgreen: Until Windows 7 I always considered Windows 2000 the best version. Now I consider Windows 7 the best build in just about all aspects except security.


Well in that case I you are home free. Note all the malware testing I do is on Win 7 and nothing gets by my setup security wise. Win 7 can be made as secure easily. What will kill 7 is vendors will stop writing software for it.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:01 am 
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Just so you know, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post started by Acadia. IMHO, all stated opinions appeared to be well thought out and not argumentative. Personally, I am a pretty satisfied Windows user, and I have been on that boat ever since it sailed......that's not to say that I haven't experienced some frustrations and problems, but the capabilities afforded me by Windows has been outstanding and much-appreciated.

I can't speak to Linux, as I never tried it.

I can speak to Apple's iMac, as I have owned one for years. I never had any major problems with my iMac nor with the latest OS, but the learning curve was a little steep for me.....probably because I was so accustomed to Windows. The iMac was my 'toy', used primarily for photos, videos and music. Most of my work was done on my Windows PC(s) because of the many different applications that I knew how to use. Still, the iMac sits in my 'home office', and every now and then I crank it up just to play (and see how much I have forgotten, lol).

Again, thanks to all for a very interesting post dialog.....

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:24 pm 
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bbarry wrote:
Again, thanks to all for a very interesting post dialog.....

And thank you bbarry for an eloquent post. My opinions for better or worst follow but please everyone realize: I have never used an Apple iMac.

There are more people leaving Windows for iMacs than vice versa. BUT I still recommend Windows (I guess now even Win10 :omg:) Two reasons: a Win system is cheaper and, there are a gazillion more programs written for Windows. The second reason affects me more than anything, I would have to relearn security and backing up (same with Linux also). There are now so many excellent security programs for Windows beyond the usual wimpy anti-Virus, and ESPECIALLY so many excellent programs to recover your entire c:drive. 10-12 years ago there were maybe 1-2 backup programs that I could recommend, now there are so many that I don't know where to begin: YOU CAN RECOVER YOUR WINDOWS SYSTEM FROM ANYTHING except a hard drive or motherboard breakage, yes even the worst Ransomware garbage which is a joke if you have a recent backup.

I am NOT saying this cannot be done with Apple but I am either too stupid or lacking the guts to make the leap-of-faith. (Plus, again, those iMacs are so darn expensive).

Remember everyone, this is one opinion from someone who has never used an iMac or Windows10.
Acadia

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:30 pm 
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jaylach wrote:
Oh Doddie, I will agree that Windows 10 is not the best version ever but have to draw the line at Windows 98! :mrgreen:

:lol: Saying the 'best' was likely using the wrong word, what I likely should've said was it was the most 'enjoyable' (for me) and there are several reasons for that...

It wasn't perfect by any means but compared to 95 it was stable enough that you could normally run it for a couple of weeks without it crashing if you kept on top of it.

The MS NNTP server was probably at the height of its activity around that time, it felt like every man and their dog that knew anything about MS products was posting on the microsoft.* hierarchy with their problems and resolutions... I'm likely wrong in this but I don't recall ever seeing an issue that wasn't resolved by the 'community' with some form of workaround within a week or two (more likely even the same day or within minutes), that said, often those workarounds were simply that, a workaround to get the user pc running again until MS released a final solution (*cough*, read as, wait for the next Service Pack *cough*).
Still, it spoke volumes for the resource that MS and their users had at their fingertips, good luck trying to find a resource like that today.
MS Answers or whatever the modern equivalent(s) are called today are useless by comparison, I gave up on them as a useful resource shortly after the newsgroups were shut down because finding anything useful without scrolling through dozens of pages (or relying on google :roll: Alta Vista :D etc ) rendered them nothing less than a time consuming waste of time.

I started my MS 'experience' with DOS 6.2 and WfW 3.11, an interesting experience not least because I didn't have web access so everything learned was from books either bought or borrowed from a library, but I did have endless fun tweaking the Win3 drivers in DOS, especially the ISA sound card which by todays standards was likely larger than my current motherboards but that's another story...

Suffice to say that when I got my hands on Win95, so United Artists laid fibre optics in my area, a pure coincidence that they happened at the same time but because UA also offered unmetered dial-up access over their telephony service [at that time the only alternative was BT and they charged a fortune with per minute billing] if you subscribed to their TV service, our flat was wired and I'm now the grumpy old git I am today because of it! ;)

I digress, as for Win2000, my problem was that it never really knew what it was meant to be... my understanding then and still is today, it was supposed to unify the home user (98) and the business user (NT) into one unified operating system (2000)... it didn't work for me, it might have done if it I could've afforded to run the latest hardware but the cost of hardware back then was as much of a factor for me as it is now (tangent ~ pc RAM prices are going through the roof today!!!!) and so it was way too slow.

As an aside, I can barely believe it was only circa 7 years ago that MS shut down their NNTP server, it feels like it was a lot longer ago and I still feel the posters pain :cry:

Microsoft is shutting down it's usenet server to "enhance and improve" my experience and is replacing it with these forums which do not include Windows 98. How is that an enhancement or improvement for me?
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/win ... ea9?auth=1


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:56 pm 
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Windows is the only OS I've ever used so I've not even played with the other machines. My neighbour had an Apple machine at one point but I never even tried that, the thing that killed them around here was being able to find anyone who could repair them if they developed a fault. Her son works for Microsoft in London and is very clever.

I used to get most of my answers from Microsoft's newsgroups and really missed them when they closed down. Of course it wasn't easy finding fixes especially when I was on dial up for years, I started with 98 and I can't for the life of me remember how but I got to know several MVP's and became friends with several of them, still am with a few, ok they are no longer MVP's but were well known and experts in their field all those years ago.

Yes there were problems and some had more problems than others but I've always been of the opinion that you can't be expected to put something out there and expect it to work on millions of machines that aren't all exactly the same.

Yes I like Microsoft Windows but then I don't have anything else to compare it with, but for me cost was a big feature plus it was easy to learn and there were plenty of programs that could be installed.

I missed 2000 as to me it was classed a business edition so as just a home user didn't think I really needed it. So started my experience of Microsoft with 98 and I expect you lot will remember but my mind has gone blank trying to think of the name of the program that came with the machine instead of Office. I know it was very well thought of and we got on with it quite well, I know it had drawers. :lol:

I've had the odd glitch with each edition but I've been able to overcome the problem with help from my MVP friends and the newsgroups, when they were around, and starting to join forums like here, I think I started with Aumha and Jim, I joined that many covering lots of different areas and enjoyed being part of the learning curve.

I'm now on Windows 10 and was part of the Insiders at the beginning but didn't go with every version, I stopped taking part when the final edition came out and have just waited until the machine is ready for any upgrades that come out before installing them. The only problem so far was when I got the latest upgrade on my desktop machine and after it the machine was going to sleep when left so I had to go looking for the setting that got changed.

I think the reason I probably don't get as many problems is because I don't really stress the system as much as some do, I know I could do a lot more on the machine than I do but I'm happy using them the way I do. :)

Yippee! I've just remembered Lotus 123. :rofl2:

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:08 pm 
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Did you mean this kind of Lotus :rofl2:

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:19 pm 
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Sigh, I remember Lotus 123 very well. [snicker] It *Exceled* very well... :mrgreen:

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Please, please don't tell Patty, but I still use Lotus 1-2-3, Release 9.6 (the last release known to mankind).

Years ago (before Excel) I developed countless personal and business spreadsheets using Lotus, and many of them contained macros (which originally didn't play well with Excel). I still use my personal Lotus spreadsheets today (investments, budget, medical records, etc.).

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